Okay, I've been trying to stay out of this, but honestly, I do have to agree that attracting casuals does matter - otherwise, how will the community grow in the first place? - and speaking as one of the few remaining ~TeCh PlAyErS~ in the Seattle area, even I sometimes have difficulty with the pads being too slippery now - even after I clean them off with several paper towels - and would probably prefer the arrows to be slightly less flush so I can actually feel where my foot is relative to the brackets.

Please note that I'm not complaining. I understand that it's a reality of the changing nature of the game that there is a push in this direction. But what I am trying to say is that if I have trouble with these things and I've been playing dance games for 13 years, it could absolutely be too intimidating for newer players, making the "Well, there are no casuals" statement into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There's not really a compromise with the flush arrow thing and enough people seem to like the pads that way that I'm cool just dealing, but honestly, maybe players who powder the pads could consider buying some windex or something and making sure to clean the pads very thoroughly with it after use? I don't mind bringing my own Windex and cleaning them myself before I play, but I absolutely agree that a newer player who doesn't know to do that could very well trip and hurt themselves.

you can't lay claim to any form of philanthropy "i'm doing this for the players" and then say . a confrontational infantilism as such does not help the discussion at hand. if this was YOUR machine, i'd lay off this. unfortunately it is not. so i suppose in the meantime the entire community should be at your whims, and have no functional say in a machine that is not even yours since "you do what you want". whenever a public forum like this is being used, you are putting your opinions out into the open to be critiqued, discussed, maligned and agreed with. you're essentially stating that your presence here is to merely pontificate about your mods, fixes and "issues" that serve essentially in both function and philosophy, YOU. i'm curious how tony feels about this, but i doubt he'll step in (i would like to hear his thoughts here, for the record).

again regarding powder: you didn't even read my point, or seem to not even address it: this is an issue of private vs public, and private use doesn't bother me in the least.

you should really look into purchasing a machine of your own, aphr. that way you can have a machine that serves a community you wish to sculpt. if you are the serious player you claim to be, a simple cost/benefit analysis should evidence that buying a machine/good pads far outweighs the cost of playing at acme. why even spend money on acme's machine knowing this? it's not for the community, it's for you. i know me: i'd much rather play at home if i just want to ma/pa. i don't like the distractions, people or anything else. the arcade is a social experience, as such it should attempt to facilitate players not any one individual. consider the economic proposition for both arcade owner and you: buy a machine. it will help us all if you wish to continue this line of thought.

semicasual/casual refers to anyone who is not a top player. if you are not actively competing with top scores you are casual. simple as that. there's my clarification. and yes, i imagine "1timers" or random adults try it. look at bigals and ground kontrol for great examples of dance games getting tried out by randoms and actually gaining the game new players.

I have no problem bringing something like Windex to use after my session. I do notice that even when you wipe down with a damp towel it still doesn't effectively remove all of it. I think it should be my responsibility or for any other player that chooses to use powder to clean up after themselves. Especially, if your powder dependent like me

I totally understand that the flush pads can be more of challenge for causals and I know some regulars are not yet use to it.  I remember playing on the flush pads for my first time about a year ago and I could not tell where my feet were. I had trouble playing on them for a little bit but with some practice I started to get a feel for it. It does take some time to get use to.

again, it's not the content of posts like these that are the issue as much as the mentality behind them. it's an inward thinking perspective taken to (frankly) dying breed of games that require an arcade presence to develop and grow a playerbase.

On the issue of the presence (or lack of existence) of casuals at Acme, may I interject something?

I wonder if you players tend to come at semi-regular times according to your work week/life schedule. During those times, sure, everyone can pass 12's. However, I've been there when Acme was full of 1337 stamina lords, and times where I was undisputedly the best dance player there, and I haven't considered myself competitive since 2007. Last time I went, someone told me they had never seen feet move that fast in her life. I was only streaming at 130. By the way, her and her family also played.

You see only greatness. They see only casual play. It's just frequented at different times. Casuals still play, but they don't put in the same revenue as they tend to play 1 set, 2 max. We play until we're dead, and we do it for years.

Shitty attitude! I guess when Acme has someone slip and fall on the pads (because either you or someone else made the pads slippery with powder and then unintentionally didn't clean off the pads fully enough) and they ask Bill to remove the ITG machine then you might change your mind.

I already know someone is going to say "...but KevinDDR, you don't even play anymore, you should just shut up!". That might be true, but keep in mind that a good part of the reason I don't play (and I do actually play DDR SN2 still at Gameworks, where I know what I'm getting when I make the effort to get down there) is because of posts like this with an "I'm better than everyone else, I do what I want, go fuck yourself" attitude. I barely even know you but I don't want to go down to Acme because even if you might be a super nice guy (which multiple people have actually said), posts like this make me feel unwelcome. If you want to be encouraging, this is not a good way to go about it.

@KevinDDR,

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, and as you said, you don't know me personally. Forums are probably the worst form of communication in existence! I was thinking about writing a huge paragraph or 2 to defend myself against your post, but I decided not too.

If/When I see you at ACME sometime, I'd be more than happy to talk directly to you about what I've done to the stage, and what I do to keep the stage powder free. 

@Everyone,

I'm doing the best I can to keep up with the changing form of this game, and to keep all the up and coming young players up to date with the changing meta.

People, I plead with you to stop using these forums to evaluate each other on a personal level. Let us keep in mind that this is just a game. I know some of us take this game very seriously and some of us just want to casually play, and I'm doing my best to keep everyone happy.

After today, I'm off the forums for good. Thank you for those who supported me over the years we've played together and I hope to see you on the dance floor!

Good bye!

gonna miss u buddy

edit: how are we gonna be able to talk to you about the pads now? you said you were using this thread as a means of communicating with the community (see my previous post for a critique on your brand of philanthropy); making it easy to get updates on the pads and report issues. with this crucial leyline of communication broken how will we be able to get to you quickly? perhaps someone eslse should maintain the pads now...

On a match lighter note, who wants to play sets at Acme sometime soon? I've been back in Washington for 2 months and haven't seen any of you guys. Admittedly I haven't gone as much as I would like, but I've been a few times. I just seem to come at the wrong times. It's always nice to actually play with people, especially since y'all are much better than me and I could work to push myself better

You've been back for two months?! How come you didn't show up for SPERGIN?

8/7/14 NEVAR FORGET

I had a date actually. I debated rescheduling, but seeing that I've been single for a year romance trumped dance games. Sorry

People, just stop. Please.
You're adults. Quit the personal attacks.

It does kind of come across like he didn't like a good number of people questioning his choice on pad decisions, so he just left. Now, even if the majority DON'T want it like that, how will he ever know?

i think a direct refutation of my points would be fair, as none of the people involved on the other side of the debate have really said anything other than "i do what i want yolo", which i don't think is quite the rebuttal that anyone on any side of this debate deserves.

behavior can reflect upon an individual: does that make a critique of their behavior/opinions personal attack? i think it's important to identify what constitutes a personal attack. it's also worth nothing that the existence of personal attacks within a post should not be used as a free pass to dismiss  legitimate discourse altogether, that's just intellectually lazy and is bad form. some of my posts contain personal attacks, some don't. just some food for thought.

I know I have been out of the discussion for the most part. I have to mention I think APHR has done an awesome job at maintaining the stage and working with other people and their suggestions with the pads. Having said that, is it reasonable to completely remove all the work done over the year because a few people on the forums hate the stage? Especially when those who do play there often perfer the flushed stage. If people are intimidated to speak to APHR how is he to know your concerns or if you think otherwise.

APHR has been doing his best to listen to other people and their concerns over the past year. I know that Iori and a few people on the forums have expressed concerns over powder usage and flushed stages. In terms of the modifications done to the stage, we as community decided together by majority vote to flush the stage. We discussed doing this over the forums a year ago. I understand that not everyone that plays uses this forum. It is not that we are excluding causal players from having their voice heard it was matter of those who play more frequently chose to speak up more about how they felt with the pads being flushed. Keeping that in mind I don't know how many times APHR would ask any player that he would see playing at ACME and on the forums, causal or not, how the stage is functioning. If the answer was anything than good he would do whatever he could to remedy the situation. Often times driving 40 mins to go the day of or as soon as possible to fix the problem, choosing to do this because he wanted to help the community as much as possible.

We all know that we cannot make everyone happy when comes to modifying a public cabinet. He does his best to listen and act upon requests and works with what he has. Lets remember that Bill the owner of the cabinet has given APHR the responsibility as well as to be the person in charge to mod and maintain. Note, it doesn't mean that he does what he wants.

As for the powder debate. We can all have our opinions about it. However, I have mentioned and APHR has mentioned we take full responsibility of removing the powder when we aren't using the stage. As I would expect other players who use powder to do the same. We take the complaints seriously and correct them as soon as possible. We recognize that this isn't our machine.

APHR tries and continues to try to listen to all types of players. From casual players to the regulars of the community, but when every word he says is dissected, critiqued and scrutinized  how do you expect somebody to stick around? When someone like Iori takes a quote from APHR like, "FRIENDSHIP" and decides to start an argument, why is this necessary?

Not that he abandoning his responsibility (Do mind that he is doing this with his own money and time), he is choosing to remove himself from this forum alone due to the excessive amounts of toxic. He will still be working and maintaining the pads. There are frequent players, myself included that use these forums who will keep APHR updated and will report any issues with the stage to him.

As APHR has asked and suggested, instead of criticizing the stage from behind a keyboard, why not come out when we are there at ACME and work with us to make the stage playable for you.

So I ask you, Iori241, Happy Redneck, QQQ, Kevin DDR, shakesoda, and those who criticize APHR's work to come meet us at ACME and actually help us test the stage so it can work for you as well as those who like it flushed. You have to recognize that
for every player who dislikes a flushed stage there are players who do like it.

I dont even live in washington.  Why does anybody care about my opinion lmao

I would very much like to see a tally that backs up that figure.

This is very fair. I think that we should really seriously consider the vote on flushed/unflushed stage.

Although, I am a little saddened because I'm too accustomed to these heavily-modded pads, and I will never do well on stock/recessed pads. I must adapt though.

We can at the least consider everyone's opinion.

Will this end this raging war?

I just want to point out that not flush does not necessarily equal stock.  There are plenty of ways to mod pads, running the full spectrum from stock to completely flush.

Is there a point just good enough to play really hard stuff and recessed enough?

Also, as a side note, I still don't really know all of the benefits of recessed pads, so I'd like someone to politely explain their rationale for wanting recessed pads. I can't stand DDR pads though. I think it helps you get a better feel, but I'd like to hear more. I'm very curious.

Devil's advocate because I really don't mind flushed pads, but since you asked I'll give somewhat of an answer.

Most people don't like the diminished "pad presence", or ability to know exactly where you are without looking at your feet. Since it is harder to feel flushed versus recessed, it definitely takes some getting used to. While not a major problem in singles as you tend to be fairly stationary, this does add a new learning curve in double

This next one seems nitpicky, but tall people DO exist. Any and all mods to put me higher on the stage, even by a few millimeters, makes the bar THAT much shorter proportionally. At 5'4'' - 6'0'', this isn't a problem. I'm 6'3''. Suko doesn't play at Acme, but he is 6'7'' I believe (or something very close to that). He is more adamant about recessed pads because height is a big concern for him if he ever vaguely wants to pretend to touch a bar, though admittedly his no bar technique is top notch.


Again, this is devil's advocate. I've played on janky pads and smooth butter. I've played on over sensitive and under sensitive. I've played on dedicab and upgrade. I've played on flush and recessed. I adapt. I'm fine. Just pointing out there are real reasons other than complaining for complaining sake.



Also, anyone playing this weekend? I feel like dancing it up, pushing limits, and killing myself at Acme soon. I need to get back into shape

Thanks for the answers. It's great to know more. I would like to take over modding someday and make it comfortable for everyone.

I never really thought about the tall-issue. I didn't realize that it made it so much harder to reach the bar if the pad was flushed.

I praise Suko for his no-bar skills. I want to be a no-barrer too , even in really hard stuff.

I guess for the feel of the pads argument, I'd say that I realize that it's different playing in shoes, and that I, as a sock player, can still feel the pads with my feet, but not everyone plays like I do, cheating as heck with everything as modded and handicapped as possible.

I may go to ACME, and I would be glad to meet some new players

I would like to point out that every machine which isn't modded flush will, by definition, have recessed pads. The mod-to-stock ratio is literally on the order of 1 to 100, probably less. If you want to get your own machine and mod it to suit your specific play style, by all means go ahead. But I disagree with modding a public machine to suit a minority of its users at the expense of everyone else -- especially after buying into the promises that it would be fine, and seeing firsthand that it very clearly was not.