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October 01, 2011, 12:13:11 AM - ORIGINAL POST -

Try To Quad

Sunday, November 13, 2011 at Acme Bowl

The entry fee is $10

The qualifier begins at 11:00 AM. Players must be present and have their entry fees accounted for by 11:30, or they will not be permitted to qualify. We mean this: if you are sufficiently late, we will have to turn you away due to time constraints.

Bracket rounds will begin once all players present have had a chance to qualify.

The tournament will be played using ITG 1-3, Rebirth, and a tournament pack being prepared specifically for this event, which is available for download here: to The pack ranges from 8's to 14's, with an emphasis on the 9-11 range.  The pack consists entirely of songs which are already installed at Acme.


The qualifier round will consist of 2 songs. The qualifiers will be selected randomly from the allowable packs. Both songs will be played on Expert; one chart will be a 9 and one will be a 10. No long songs will be allowed as qualifiers.

Players will be ranked on each of the two qualifiers separately. The two rankings will be added together, and this total will be used to build an overall ranking, with the highest seeds being those with the lowest total scores. Ties will be broken by comparing the lower of each individual's song ranks - for example, if one player is ranked 8th in both songs and another is ranked 7th and 9th, the first player will win the tiebreaker - thus giving the higher rank to the player with more consistent performance. In the event there is still a tie - continuing the previous example, a third player was ranked 9th and 7th respectively, thus tying the second player's 16 point total and lowest rank of 9th - then the tied players will play a randomly selected 9 on Hard as a tiebreaker. No long songs will be allowed as tiebreakers.

Players will be seeded by their cumulative rank on the qualifier into the bracket as described below; in the unlikely event that there are more entrants than the bracket allows, the qualifier will also be used to trim the pool of entrants.

Bracket Format

An experimental tournament format will be used.  The organizers are using this bracket in an attempt to encourage a wider range of players to enter by keeping the highest seeding players out of matches until a few rounds into the tournament. This gives the lowest seeding players a chance to compete with players more closely matched in skill, rather than immediately facing the highest seeded players.  Most importantly, this format does not completely segregate players

The tournament will consist of two divisions, each using a double elimination bracket. There will be an 8 player championship division and a 16 (or 32, if more than 20 players enter) player main division.  The top 4 seeds will be placed directly into the corresponding top 4 slots of the championship division, with the remaining four slots filled by the top four players from the main division.

The main division will end before all rounds are played. Once 4 players remain (that is, 2 in the winners bracket and 2 in the losers bracket), these players will be seeded into the championship bracket. The two winners bracket players become the 5th and 6th seeds and the two losers brackets become the 7th and 8th seeds; the ranking within each of these pairs is determined by players' qualifier rankings.

The championship division begins once the main bracket ends and will be a standard double elimination bracket.  The two players from the losers bracket of the main division will still require two losses to be eliminated from the championship bracket, even though they already lost one match in the main division.

At the beginning of the final round, the finalist from the winners bracket will have no losses, so the challenger from the losers bracket must therefore win two consecutive matches to be declared the champion; if the challenger loses either match, then the tournament immedaitely ends and the challenger takes second place.

Given the amount of time between the qualifier and the start of the championship division, the top 4 seeds will be allowed to warm up immediately before the championship division begins; these players may opt to play a single song alone or to pair up with another top seed and play 2 songs.

Match Format

Matches will be scored as best 2 of 3 on charts played by both players, head to head. Both players will provided a card and asked to prepare a list of 3 song/difficulty pairs to present to the other player. One player will then select one option from their opponent's list to be played; after the first song has been scored, the second player will present their card to the first player, who will select one to be played. If there is a tie after 2 songs, random charts will be chosen from the allowable tournament packs until the tie is broken; subsequent tiebreakers will be played until a winner can be determined.  Rules regarding the selection of charts for cards and the difficulty of tiebreaker songs are specified under "Difficulty of Charts".

Songs will be scored by the default machine scoring formula - your score is exactly what the game says it is. In the event of a tie, the match moves on to the next song with neither player awarded a partial or complete win.

At the beginning of each match, the higher seed will select their preference regarding either
- What side of the machine they will play on
- Whether they present their song card first or second.
The lower seed will then make a choice regarding the remaining preference.

Arbitration of Pad Errors

If there are concerns about machine errors, alert the organizers immediately after the song ends - if a player stops halfway through a song due to errors, there is no way to properly arbitrate and the song will be scored normally.

The pad arbitration rules involve two separate recalculations. The first gives 3 points per disputed step (equivalent to alternating between Excellents and Greats); if this recalculation gives the affected player a win, that player will be awarded the win immediately.

If the affected score is not a winning score after the first recalculation, the second recalculation will be done, treating each error as 4.5 points, rounded down (equivalent to alternating Excellents and Fantastics, with the first error being an Excellent). If this recalculated score beats the opponent's score, then the match will continue to the next song, ignoring the results of the current song:
- If the disputed song was player selected, then the rest of the round will be played normally until the one random tiebreaker has been played. Should neither player have won two songs at this point, the card containing the disregarded song will be presented a second time, and one of the remaining songs will be selected by the other player. In the unlikely event that all three songs from a card are thrown out due to errors, a random tiebreakers will be used from then on.
- If the disputed song was a random tiebreaker, another random tiebreaker will be chosen.

If the second recalculated score is still a losing score, then the opponent's win will be maintained.

If both players claim pad errors, the recalculations will be done simultaneously.

Players are asked to report all errors, even if they don't effect the outcome of a song, so that the organizers can repair the pads when deemed necessary.

During the qualifier, errors will be recalculated as 3 points.

Charts Selection

In response to frequent disputes regarding what difficulties should and should not be allowed in a tournament, the following rules were created and subsequently tested at the Sakuracon 2011 ITG tournament. Organizers' observations as well as discussions with entrants indicate that this format was well balanced and enjoyable all around, without changing the outcome significantly from what was expected, so it will be used again with only a few minor tweaks.

If you think the rules sound neither fair nor fun after reading them, then please do not enter; nobody is being forced to enter, and previous impressions of this format have proven very positive.

(1) At all times, all charts from the allowed packs are selectable with any difficulty from Easy to Expert (Novice charts are not allowed), regardless of rating.

(2) Each round of tournament has a point value set. The three song/difficulty choices that a player makes must add up to this point value exactly; for example, if point total is 26, so players may pick two 9's and an 8, two 8's and a 10, or even a 12, a 13 and a 1, or any other set that sums to 26. Players will be given a card to write their set on and tournament staff will validate the set before the opponent sees it; if the sum is incorrect, the player will be asked to replace a single selection to achieve the correct sum.

Some charts, for example, those from ITG Rebirth, have been rated differently in different versions of the pack. The rating of a chart as it appears on on the machine will be considered correct; if a card is found to use erroneous ratings, the player will be asked to replace the erroneously rated chart with a chart which actually carries that rating - the other selections may not be changed in this situation. The organizers reserve the right to rerate charts selected for the tournament pack, but always use caution when exercising this right and will no longer do so once the tournament pack has been published.

Some long songs are included in the tournament pack. To keep the tournament moving at a smooth pace, a player may only write one long song on a given card.  If a player writes more than one, they will be asked to replace all but one will standard length songs of equal rating.

(3) The point values are set per round; each round in a given bracket has a higher point value than the last, though a player moving into the loser's bracket may play the same point total in the loser's bracket as they did in their last winner's bracket match. The lowest point total will be 26 (24 if the main division requires a 32 slot bracket) and the difficulties will progress as follows:
- The main division winners bracket starts at 26 (24 if a larger bracket is used) and increases by 2 points per round; the last matches are therefore set at 30 points.
- The main division losers bracket starts at 27 (25 if a larger bracket is used) and increases by 1 point per round, the last matches are therefore set at 30 points.
- The championship division winners bracket starts at 31 points and increases by 1 point per round; the last match is therefore set at 33 points.
- The championship division losers bracket starts at 31 and increases by 1 point per round; the last match is therefore set at 34 points.
- The final round of the championship division is set at 35 points for the first match and 36 points for the second match if one is required.

(4) Tiebreaker difficulties will set according to the current round's point value as well. The tiebreaker will be set at one third the point value, rounded to the nearest whole number - this means the the first two rounds of both brackets use 9's (8's if a 24 point round is necessary), tie breakers for the final matches of the main division will be 10's, and the final round of the championship bracket will use 12's as tiebreakers.

Each time a tiebreaker is being chosen, each player will be allowed to veto one of the random songs that appears; if multiple tiebreakers are needed for a match, the players will both have exactly one veto for each subsequent tiebreakers regardless of whether they have vetoed any songs previously. If the random song is on either players' card for this round, it will be skipped automatically.

Only one long song may be played as a tiebreaker in a given round - the organizers will automatically skip any subsequent long songs that come up.

(5) A player may not write a selection down multiple times; not only must the three choices on a given card be unique, but that player may not reuse any of those three song/difficulty pairs in any later tournament round; selecting a song on multiple difficulties, either on the same card or in different rounds is allowed, as the specific chart (song/difficulty pair) is what must be unique.

(6) Players may not put either qualifer on their card in any round, this rule does not apply to charts used as tiebreakers during the qualifier, and any player may pick those tiebreakers in tournament rounds so long as the remaining rules allow it.

(7) "You pick it, you pass it" - if a player writes down a chart on their card and their opponent selects it, the player must pass it. If a player fails their own selection, it is an automatic loss regardless of the two players' scores or whether their opponent passes or fails.

General Rules

Sandbagging - that is, intentionally playing under one's known ability to alter the sequence of tournament matches or the seeding order - is not allowed at any point during the tournament. Sandbagging is unsportsmanlike at best and a form of cheating at worst, thus sandbaggers will be automatically and immediately disqualified if caught. This is admittedly hard to determine, so this rule will be applied with extreme caution, but it is an insult to both the organizers and the other players to try, so a severe penalty is justified.

After finishing a song, players must not clear the results screen until the organizers tell them to do so. Any player who does so once will be warned not to do it again; if a player continues to clear the results screen without permissions, the cleared scores will be ignored and that player will automatically lose the song.

Players are to report to the tournament desk for their matches during the immediately previous match to provide time for players to make their selections and to ensure a smooth and timely progression through matches; players must report for a match before the end of the immediately previous match. If the current round has other matches remaining, then the players in the subsequent match will be found and asked to go first if present; if the missing player(s) are not found by the end of the first song of this match, then the missing players will be immediately disqualified. If players are missing for the final match of a given round, they will be disqualified immediately upon the end of the previous match.

During the first round only, players eliminated during the qualifier, if there were any, will be offered a chance to replace disqualified players. Such players will be offered the chance to do so according to seeding order upon the disqualification of another player.

Information about the order of upcoming matches will be made as visible and accessible as possible to entrants so that they can report for matches in a timely manner. If players need to or want to leave the arcade before they have eliminated from the tournament, they are responsible for knowing when they need to return for their matches; tournament staff will do their best to estimate the time until a player's next match, so that a player can have a reasonably safe idea of how long they may leave the arcade, but these estimates are not considered binding and cannot be used to justify a player's failure to report for a match.

Matches will be scheduled to prevent players from playing in consecutive matches as often as is possible, but the final few rounds of a double elimination bracket do require consecutive matches to happen. Players will be allowed up to 5 minutes of rest between consecutive matches if desired, but resting players are asked to report to the tournament desk to prepare song cards as soon as possible after their previous match - the 5 minute rest period will be considered to include time spent preparing song cards; completing a card does not automatically end the rest period, so a resting player may complete their card at any time without forfeiting remaining rest time.

Finally, and most importantly: players are expected to know the rules to a reasonable degree - ignorance of a rule does not excuse violation of the rule. Some rules only apply in specific circumstances, so the organizers will be understanding of confusion as it arises, but it is expected that all entrants have a general idea of what is and is not acceptable and/or required during the tournament. There will be a printed copy of the rules at the tournament for arbitration purposes and to provide entrants the opportunity to read them for clarifications as necessary. There will be no admissible reason for an entrant to not have a reasonable understanding of the rules as written; the tournament organizers will be happy to offer clarifications if a player is confused about some part of the rules.

The tournament organizers reserve the right to make changes to the rules as necessary before and during the event, but will only do so following discovery of either major inconsistencies or easy opportunities for a player to exploit the rules and achieve an unfair advantage. Unless one of these situations arises, the rules are finalized as written.

The tournament organizers additionally reserve the right to disqualify or refuse entry to any entrant or potential entrant for any violation of the rules above or behaviors deemed sufficiently inappropriate, disruptive, or unsportsmanlike; the appropriateness of disqualification is left to the sole discretion of the tournament organizers.


All entry fees will go straight to the prize pool, which is to be divided among the top four entrants based on the following structure:

1st: 40%
2nd: 30%
3rd: 20%
4th: 10%

Re-rated Charts

In general, the organizers have  changed the ratings of some charts in the tournament pack; ratings are hardly an exact science, so changes were only made when a chart was thought to be decisively misrated. The following charts were found to need a rating adjustment:
-After Hours: 10 => 11
-Jingo Dance: 9 => 10
-Presto: 10 => 11
-Quasar: 10 => 12
-We No Speak Americano: 9 => 10

« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 08:23:07 PM by BLueSS »
Read November 08, 2011, 03:40:47 PM #76

Err, that's what I meant.  Visual noise, not aural noise.  Sorry that wasn't clear!

Tony and I didn't have the issue you're having, so Mini is a likely bet.  I think Ben and a few others also play on Mini, so it's still a legitimate concern. 
Read November 08, 2011, 04:08:01 PM #77

Naw Allan, you were just mesmerized with those boobies in you face. I too, was mesmerized by its beauty once... Cry
Read November 09, 2011, 12:17:01 AM #78

You guys are so spoiled with your dull and generic BGAs.  (I'm pretty sure the default BGA brightness for ITG is actually 40%)  FYI, this is what people who play other games are used to:

[Pump It Up NXA] Banya Production - The People Didn't Know CZ

Read November 09, 2011, 09:21:22 AM #79

Alright so I was a big fat liar. I have to much work to get a simple poster done. Just throw some text on paper and get it up there.

I'm sorry guys Sad
If you went to Digipen you would understand why.
Read November 09, 2011, 10:22:35 AM #80

FYI, this is what people who play other games are used to
I found these way easier to read than ba ba lee boo ba lee boo ba ra bee ba boo hehe

So should I be the one to make up a flier? I'm headed to Acme today so I suppose I could get it done...
Read November 09, 2011, 10:29:22 AM #81

Don't worry guys, I got ya covered...

Just change the name and BAM! All done.

Or you can use this masterpiece of modern art:

I'm a generous man who doesn't mind sharing his great artistic masterpieces for a good cause.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 10:31:48 AM by Suko »
Read November 09, 2011, 10:41:31 AM #82

Read November 10, 2011, 07:59:53 AM #83

Flier's up by the way. Nothing too special but it gets all the main information across and it's kinda pretty I guess Smiley I probably wont make it down to Narrows but if anyone plays there or anywhere else with people who don't come to Acme regularly make sure they know about it as well!
Read November 11, 2011, 02:09:24 PM #84

For anyone interested in qualifying on Saturday evening instead of Sunday morning, I'll be at Acme recording scores (and practicing) between roughly 7:00 and 9:00.  I will probably stay a little after 9:00, but I reserve the right to refuse to qualify players after 9:00, as I have somewhere to be.

Saturday qualifying rules:

When you are ready to qualify, tell me; you'll be qualifying immediately, so make sure you're ready.  You need to pay your entry fee before you'll be allowed to qualify.

Qualifying players get precedence over any player formed line - if there are people currently playing, I'll wait for the current set to finish, but then all pending qualifiers will happen.  You may chose to play your qualifier alone if you want,, unless there are enough players waiting that this is impractical.

You won't have to pay for your qualifier set (since you wouldn't have to on Sunday).  You'll play the two songs (in either order), then quit out of your third song - only the qualifiers are free.  If you have any pad errors during a song, let me know immediately after that song ends - if you wait, I can't confirm it as easily, so you'll take your unadjusted score.

I will reiterate that you need to talk to me before playing the qualifiers if you want your scores to count.  Even if you quad one of the songs while I'm watching, you can't come to me afterward and say that you meant for that to be your qualifier.  This is to prevent players from cherry picking their scores - whether it's on Saturday or Sunday, you only have one chance to get an official score on the qualifiers.  In the interest of fairness and accountability, I will be qualifying on Sunday.
Read November 11, 2011, 06:21:20 PM #85

I should note that I asked Tony to do this for me because I have a prior engagement.  This is officially sanctioned and all that. Smiley
Read November 12, 2011, 08:30:48 AM #86

Bob Sinclar & Sugarhill Gang - Lala Song

Yeeeeah just do it do it do it

Totally ready to throw down. Though this shoulda been in the tournament pack for sure Wink
Read November 12, 2011, 11:45:45 PM #87

cannot wait for this. Making my return to the tournament circuit after a long break, and given i still have a pretty good deal more rust to scrape off, and beyond any pad errors, there's no excuses, a win is a win, a loss is a loss, and these are always so much fun.

See you guys tomorrow. I'll most likely be in white Wink

oh and uhh...have the qualifiers been named yet? I remember seeing that in the thread somewhere, maybe i'm missing it, or are they decided at the tuorney?

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 11:54:00 PM by neempoppa »
Read November 13, 2011, 10:56:06 AM #88

The qualifiers have been selected.  They are "Baby Don't You Want Me" (9) and "Fire Burning" (10).  Also, the original text of this post is Ben's fault.  Tongue

Read November 14, 2011, 12:09:05 AM #89

I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful matches and Gerrak (Allan) for the treats and refreshments. I really enjoyed this type of card format tournament because it really makes you think on your feet (see what I did there? har har har)
Its also interesting to see what your opponent picks. In other words, it can be a mind game Grin

I hope everyone had fun, because I did =) thanks again for all those that made this tournament possible. Until next time!
Read November 14, 2011, 11:21:13 AM #90

The thing I'd change about this tournament was the qualifier.  I think the system we used back in the day of coming up with a list of 5-6 qualifiers and narrowing it down to two on the tournament day and having players select one of them worked the best.  Having Baby Don't You Want Me, such a gimmicky chart, seemed to throw off the natural seed order a lot and seemed to create much unintentional sandbagging.  The system of selecting your qualifier would have prevented this.  Not only that, but making people practice 5-6 different songs rather than two somewhat alleviates people simply whoring out the qualifiers and memorizing them, and seeds people more based on their overall skill.
Read November 14, 2011, 01:37:43 PM #91

What were the results?

Anyone have pictures we can upload to the site?
Read November 14, 2011, 01:50:10 PM #92

Regarding the qualifier - we were originally going to randomly (with some allowances for vetoing very unfair charts) pick two when qualifying started on Sunday.  Baby Don't You Want Me, if either Laura or I had actually seen it before, probably would have been vetoed.  We posted the qualifiers early to allow for the Saturday qualifying option to be fair to all players (if we'd picked them Saturday, players could practice them and qualify Sunday, disadvantaging the Saturday players).
Read November 14, 2011, 03:44:10 PM #93


10 players entered.  The top 4 were, in order, Allan, Tuan, Tony, and Ben.  We had some REALLY close matches, and also some really amazing scores.  (Allow me to brag about my hubby for a minute: he got 2 on Riders, Unite! and 5 on D-Code during the tournament!)

I am pretty sure Travis took a bunch of pictures with his fancy camera, so I will hit him up for those soon! Cheesy

Regarding the qualifier: The old system of picking 5 or 6 "fair" charts, announcing them in advance, and narrowing them down to 1 or 2 on tournament day no longer works for one simple reason - organizers now enter their own tournaments.  Tony and I could not have any part in the qualifier selection process if we wanted to enter this tournament and still have it be fair, so we had to choose randomly.  We still might have vetoed Baby Don't You Want Me if we had ever seen/played it before we announced it, because it kind of sucks to play, but for the aforementioned reasons, this qualifier was still more "fair" than if we had selected potential qualifiers ourselves in any way other than with the machine's random function.

My personal opinion, which might be different from yours (and that's okay!) is that Fire Burning, the other qualifier, was a totally straightforward chart, and I think that having both as qualifiers actually evened things out in a way we rarely get to see.  Baby Don't You Want me is a shitty chart to actually play, and I am genuinely sorry you guys had to go through that, but I don't really think the rankings were actually unfairly influenced by it being one of the qualifiers - if anything, we got to see who the best players were at handling straightforward charts AND gimmicky crap, and then average them out in a way that ranked players based on who was the best all-around.

Read November 14, 2011, 05:15:28 PM #94

With regard to the two qualifier system - the rankings were pretty consistent across both songs and the difference between most players' rankings on one vs. the other was only 1 space.

The biggest difference seen was between my two ranks, 2nd on Baby Don't You Want Me and 6th on Fire Burning (Fire Burning had a very tight cluster of scores between 99 and 99.5, and hitting a mine gave me the lowest score in the 3rd-6th cluster).  Had I not hit that mine, I would have seeded 3rd instead of 4th.  This system did a reasonable job compensating for the advantage of knowing the qualifier already as well as preventing a single fluke from dropping a player far down the rankings because a bunch of players had tightly clustered scores.

Unfortunately, double qualifying also takes twice as long.
Read November 15, 2011, 02:38:02 AM #95

i like the double qualifying system, helps patch up any losses from another song, vice versa. yesterday was the first time i saw and played that song/chart, pretty crazy but fun in its own way. the card system was pretty cool too, though some songs i wanted to play bad, it adds some spiciness ;]

Thank you Laura, Tony, and everyone else who set this tourney up! it is never easy to handle everything, and the donuts and powerade were a major plus.  Smiley, makes it so much fun to keep practicing too. Though i just came back after a good 5-6months break, it is a good practice experience, and way to learn strengths and weaknesses (and find new fun songs). See you guys soon!
Read November 15, 2011, 10:34:15 AM #96

Having Baby Don't You Want Me, such a gimmicky chart, seemed to throw off the natural seed order a lot and seemed to create much unintentional sandbagging
We still might have vetoed Baby Don't You Want Me if we had ever seen/played it before we announced it, because it kind of sucks to play

Not to be a wise ass but Baby Don't You Want Me is a classic, not gimmicky but technical chart involving full-back crossovers. There's not 1 gimmick or even hand in it at all, it's just more advanced crossovers than most people bother to learn how to do. I thought this was a very good song to seed on, and all the top seeders got SDEs on it. If you can't do it, maybe you should learn how! Play Funk Factory, Oasis, The Beginning, Soapy Bubble, the list goes on and on of songs that do the exact same thing (though I've only bothered to list these four ITG 1/2 officials) or for that matter, Afronova, which does it at the very beginning.

Anyway carry on Wink

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 10:37:24 AM by Gerrak »
Read November 15, 2011, 06:36:18 PM #97

Actually Allan, I kind of agree with you.  When I say sucks to play, I sorta mean in that fun "hate it but also love it" way, kinda like how I feel about Hearts of Ice or Funk Factory.  I agree that it is in the realm of technical/not just stupid gimmicks, I just don't think I personally would have advocated it as a qualifier if it didn't come up on random. Smiley

I certainly don't think it would make a fair qualifier BY ITSELF, because it only tests ability in one area (weird technical stuff that most people don't do,) but Fire Burning was the PERFECT second qualifier to offset that.
Read November 15, 2011, 06:59:52 PM #98

You are all wrong.  The qualifiers should have been Esperanza and Eternus.
Read November 15, 2011, 07:11:00 PM #99

Really?  Because I was thinking for the next one it'd be Epileptic Crisis and The Universe Beside You Hard
Read November 21, 2011, 01:19:58 PM #100

I am pretty sure Travis took a bunch of pictures with his fancy camera, so I will hit him up for those soon! Cheesy

I have the photos. They will be released once the sum of 10,000,000 dance points are deposited into the following unnamed account...

Or I'll post them later tonight. Don't expect much, I spent most of my time watching or Facebooking.
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