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October 05, 2007, 03:39:20 AM - ORIGINAL POST -

So mkat ( and I are organizing a tournament called United States of Groove (USG) which is going to be two tournaments in different states held simultaneously. It's still in the infant state, which is where you guys come in. Like every LG tournament it's based off what the players would think is the best. So here's a basic outline and what we're thinking of doing. Ideas are more than welcome. The official thread is over at with the Utah half over at UtahDDR.

So far we're thinking it would be easier and more logistically sound to run two individual tournaments, do local winners, and post the records online. We'd compile the scores and figure out who the overall winner is. Prizes will be cash prizes from the $5 entry fee. Other prizes will depend on sponsorship. Machine will be, hopefully, DDREX, but SN may be the machine due to lack of usable EX machines in WA and Utah.

Keep tuned here or (ideally*) at and

*Because I can't promise I'll keep the thread on PNWBemani updated as quickly as the LG forums or mkat will on UtahDDR.
Read October 07, 2007, 08:39:44 AM #1

nothing in oregon? :C
Read October 08, 2007, 12:53:26 PM #2

No tournament organizers from Oregon have volunteered. Tongue
Read October 08, 2007, 02:38:54 PM #3

i didn't know that utahddr is even still active.
Read October 08, 2007, 09:37:56 PM #4

Yup. We're still around. Smiley
Read October 11, 2007, 10:52:20 AM #5

Read August 12, 2008, 04:47:56 PM #6

Life has been breathed back into the tournament. I posted this on UtahDDR and I'll crosspost it here.


Okay, so here's the crazy idea I came up with. Feel free to flame me, but I believe this could make the tournament very exciting while rewarding players for consistency and skill over a wider variety of arrow patterns.

Under the standard tournament formats the player that wins 2 out of 3 songs is determined to be the winner of the round. Under this new style we will be adding up player's scores to determine the round winner. For example:

Player 1's scores for all three songs are 400, 600, and 400.
Player's 2's scores for all three songs are 410, 610, 360.

Normally player 2's scores would normally allow him to win. However, under this new system Player 1 would win because of his higher overall score (1400 VS 1380). Player 1 is rewarded the win because he was consistently a better playing. Although player 2 won two out of the three songs it was a very narrow victory but was noticeably worse on the third song.

Comments are highly encouraged since this is possibly a highly controversial system.
Read August 12, 2008, 04:53:35 PM #7

For reference, here is a direct link to the thread on Utahddr:
Read August 13, 2008, 12:25:01 AM #8

I'll get a corresponding event set up in Portland, Oregon.  We'll have to collaborate ideas and dates some time.  How soon are you thinking we'll be doing this?  I'll make sure to drop a note by the Idaho/Spokane lot and see if someone amongst them wants to get in on it too.

Also, renew your domain, dude. :[

EDIT: Freq, I'm actually using a similar system for both my Team and DEMON tournaments at Kumoricon. . . we'll see how it goes. Tongue

« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 12:28:54 AM by DancingTofu »
Read August 13, 2008, 10:50:24 AM #9

Also, renew your domain, dude. :[ <3

Kat and I talk in #usg on Come hit us up. The idea so far has been, since it was just WA and Utah we'd have the top 4 from each local tournament go on to the Utah VS WA tournament. If we get a third or even a 4th state we'll have to rethink the crossover. Even extend the tournament to a 2-day event. One day for locals (determine winner locally) then the top X players will be "invited" to compete in the "nationals". 4srs come hit us up in our channel.
Read August 13, 2008, 08:56:14 PM #10

In all honesty, we may not be able to hold this tournament until sometime early next year. But that depends on how soon we can all get organized. Get the rules down, get individual tournament organizers in different states/cities, secure locations and all that.

Also, I'm working on writing up some outlines on what is expected from local organizers. This would hopefully help shed some light on some recent questions asked about prizes and stuff like that. I hope to have this done by the end of the week.

I suggest you guys check out the thread over on Utahddr because they're going all kinds of crazy talking about the scoring.

For reference, here's a link to the thread over on DDRFreak that DancingTofu started:

Read August 14, 2008, 12:26:41 AM #11

Licyeus brings up a really legit argument; I think I have a solution.

At Sakuracon, the closest I came to losing a match was against Darryl, who picked Healing-d-Vision (Expert) for us to play no bar and took me to my third match.  Had he done this to anyone other than me, Ahn, or Smile, he would have gotten an A and they would have failed, suffered cardiac arrest, and died.  This was completely legitimate, because I was still able to pass, but I got to thinking, "you know, it would be really underhanded if he pulled that on anyone else".

So, I came up with a SYSTEM!

Players determine their gameplay peak - the level at which they can uncomfortably pass songs consistently.  Their opponents are not aloud to select songs above that difficulty level against them.

For example, my gameplay peak currently sits at 10's (I've been meaning to start playing 11's for years now; been too busy trying to make DDR pads).  laharlsama's gameplay peak sits at 9's.  That means that I couldn't select anything harder than a 9 while playing against him, but he could select a 10 while playing against me.  The logic behind this is that people won't pick songs that they themselves will fail; they'll pick songs that their opponents will fail.  This counters that.

I also have some other experimental rules.  I'm playing around with Handicaps and grade bonuses, as well as, in one case, a set grouping of difficulties that people have to play each set. (there's actually a very good reason for this, but I don't want to go through and explain it all)

As far as mix goes, I think it would be best to play on ITG2 R21 if we all have access to one.  We've got 1, potentially 2 in Portland and a few others roaming Oregon, including a few Dedicabs, and I know Bill has at least one (at Acme, IIRC). 

The reason for that is because that allows us to take official DDR charts, put them on a 2GB flash drive (you can get about 800 90-second songs with charts and banners on one), and have a larger song selection, better machines (ITG2 machines are almost always in better condition than DDR machines), and a percentage displayed right on the screen.  We also get a reliable, tight timing window that's better synced than SuperNOVA and more rationally scored than SuperNOVA2.
Read August 14, 2008, 01:17:55 AM #12

That sounds like better players are being penalized for having a higher ability to play. This would especially be bothersome when the lower-seeded players are pitted against the higher seeded players. Review the LG5 rules. USG is an extension of LG and thus is using a lot of the core rules and systems. One of which is song selection being determined by round. Only players who make it to the final X rounds are even allowed to choose 9s and 10s.

Also, LG has always been a DDR tournament. Nothing against ITG but from day 1 LG was DDR and this it shall stay. LG5 even went back to 5th mix for some old school fun. It was a very small tournament, especially compared to LG1-4. While using an ITG cab to run DDR simfiles would essentially do the same thing it's not the same experience. A tournament hosted on Max2 or Extreme would be ideal, but it also depends on the venues each organizer is able to secure.
Read August 14, 2008, 10:01:20 PM #13

I would like to add something to this. We are also only allowing the use of original arcade machines. Either an original DDR dedicab or an upgraded DDR machine. We will not allow the use of a hacked together machine such as the old namco machines that ran on a playstation. We also will not allow a simulator setup like a PC or console hooked up to a TV. It must be an original arcade machine.
Read August 15, 2008, 04:24:24 AM #14

That sounds like better players are being penalized for having a higher ability to play. This would especially be bothersome when the lower-seeded players are pitted against the higher seeded players.
The way I have the handicaps set up, high-skill players only receive a penalty if they're playing in a lower bracket; this is mostly out of necessity, due to the fact that it could be hard to organise perfectly balanced teams at an event that isn't completely focused on the DDR, which is why I'm using it for Kumoricon.

As long as we follow the existing LG rule with set difficulties and re-rate (effectively ban) a few songs that are grossly misrated due to Konami's refusal to expand the rating system to 11's and 12's, I don't think that it will become a Stamina competition.  Everyone I know who would be able to make it to the final rounds playing 7's and 8's can pass 10's pretty comfortably.  Even I can pass and get around 90% on 10's pretty easily and I probably wouldn't even make it into the final 16 in a state-wide competition for Oregon.

Also, unless there are more than 64 people involved in any given competition, DDR Extreme is perfectly sufficient to run USG.  Max2 would be doable if there were any working Max2 machines left in Oregon. :/ (there might be a couple down south still, but last I heard the only ones remaining were non-functional)

I know for a fact we could get Ground Kontrol to get behind a DDR Extreme competition, and possibly even repair their machine fully in preparation for one, so I'd really push for Extreme assuming ITG2 is completely out of the question.
Read August 15, 2008, 09:11:28 PM #15

Cross-posted from UtahDDR.

Quote from: Freq

The first file shows breakdowns of different ways to score each player, and the second one is an excel file that A) shows the formulas and B) allows you to plug in data to see the results. I'm trying to figure out which way is the best/most agreeable, but I do like having a way to declare a winner even if the combined DDR Magic score would result in a tie.

EDIT: I plugged in some numbers to try and get some disagreement between scoring systems. Holy hell.

Feedback on scoring systems please.
Read August 17, 2008, 06:14:45 PM #16

For those interested in running a USG event in their area, please read
Read August 17, 2008, 07:45:05 PM #17

The one with the disagreements is just silly.

First of all, 1480/1520 = 97.37%, not 94.86%; where did you get a number like that?

Second, when compiling ratios, you have to average when you add figures, so the DDR Magic/# of steps would be the average of the 3 songs, not the total; it would be 1.973 for player 1 and 1.926 for player 2.  Why even do this though?  You have this ratio already.  You're simply adding an unneeded variable on each side of the equation, the opposite of what you should be doing.

Third, don't use the Super WTF Calculus Score.  It's silly.  Show me a formula for it and I might think otherwise, but just use DP or EX.  Don't waste time with weird shit like this.
Read August 17, 2008, 07:53:09 PM #18

The idea is to make the length of the score impact the overall scores less. I'll post the formulas in the spreadsheet in just a minute.

Score = (DDR Magic score/DDR Magic possible score) * LOG(DDR Magic score)

Edit: <--that is a better way to look at the scoring systems. The other example had DDR Magic and Crazy WTF system agree with each other. Here they do not with scores that more accurately reflect what could happen in real life.

Edit 2: I updated again with the other way of using wtf crazy calc system. Take a look. I'm pretty blown away.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 10:42:23 PM by Freq »
Read August 18, 2008, 12:52:06 PM #19

Oh.  Logs lol.

I guess that works, but it would make the tournaments crazy long unless each of us have a graphing calculator with the formula preset so we can just punch in the possible and the actual scores.  I don't see a problem with it if we do that.  I can try to remember how to program formulae into a graphing calculator if we do use this scoring system.

Also, that's no calc!  That's Math 110!  Calc would be, like, the limit of pineapple as actual approaches maximum, where pineapple equals log of actual to the shroomz. ;P
Read August 18, 2008, 02:12:31 PM #20

I guess that works, but it would make the tournaments crazy long unless each of us have a graphing calculator with the formula preset so we can just punch in the possible and the actual scores.  I don't see a problem with it if we do that.  I can try to remember how to program formulae into a graphing calculator if we do use this scoring system.

All my tournaments have been run with a spreadsheet to keep track of songs played, scores, player rankings, etc. There's no chance in hell I would try to do this with a regular calculator. Tongue
Read August 18, 2008, 09:36:24 PM #21

Nobody said anything about a regular calculator.  I said "graphing calculator".  Anyway, have fun monkeying it in, but I'm using my TI-84+. Tongue

I do us spreadsheets to keep track of songs played and rankings, but using the computer calculator with formula involving 10 or more strokes would be crazy-tedious.  It's seriously 9 strokes on a calculator; would take less than 2 seconds and you'd have all the figures right there to put in the spreadsheet.
Read August 18, 2008, 09:57:22 PM #22

I ment "regular calculator" vs using a spreadsheet on a computer. Besides, the all I have to do is enter the perfects/greats/etc into the spreadsheet and it calculates the scores, color codes the results, and moves the winner into the next bracket. Wink
Read August 19, 2008, 01:26:07 PM #23

Crap, I must not be keeping up with what Spreadsheets are capable of.  Last I checked, they had trouble just adding numbers together. :[

What program/version do you use?  I'm a bum, so I'm stuck with using OpenOffice for everything.
Read August 19, 2008, 05:13:30 PM #24

I'm using some old version of MS Office. I need to install OpenOffice on this computer so everyone will be able to use it.
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