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September 29, 2014, 10:34:53 PM - ORIGINAL POST -


Debating in the poll itself was, IMO, damaging to the spirit of the poll, and I agree with Rose that it's not really productive. However, I want you guys to feel like your voices are getting heard, so I split all of the debate off from the poll itself. If you want to debate the bracket issue, do it here. Don't post in the poll thread about this debate, post here.

There are rules, though! Only local players can vote, but anyone can debate how they feel about brackets v. no brackets as an overall issue here.  However, opinions have to be CIVIL. No calling anyone names or antagonizing players directly or you will receive a warning.


Oh. Would it hurt if I tried to play 15s on them with socks?

« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 01:24:41 PM by Laura »
Read September 30, 2014, 12:37:45 AM #1

I kinda prefer brackets, some charts kinda need them to not become trivial.

I don't really care that much though.
Read September 30, 2014, 04:08:56 PM #2

Yay for simple polls ~
Read September 30, 2014, 04:51:08 PM #3

I thought this discussion was over... the pads have been *perfect* since you guys took over, dont change them... Seriously, if some of you guys have a problem with these pads you should make the tiny adjustment to your play to get with the rest of us in realizing the pads are absolutely phenomenal as is. Finally, please don't run this strictly democratically, since some voters barely play, or maybe not at all. I've been really nice over all this but jesus, if you can't play on these pads now then it's your own fault and your stubbornness screws up play for those of us who aren't stuck on 1999s primitive pad design pre-10s and want to do hard stuff like the rest of the country.

In other words, the pad is GREAT; if you have a problem stop whining about it and just learn how to play modern ITG or go back to DDR. Its really honestly worth the effort, because it's a much richer endgame that way. I mean really why do I have to come say all this, go play at acme and actually TRY THE PAD. I've had like 2 errors in the last 50000+ steps, the pad is just fine...

Read September 30, 2014, 05:14:21 PM #4

I actually also don't understand why this question has come up.
The pads are finally great and I just don't know why we'd want to change that.
Read September 30, 2014, 05:47:50 PM #5

If you are to replace the brackets, you will have to re-mod the stage. Chris and I have modded the stage to work without the inner brackets. Without using the inner brackets, you can get a much flusher stage, but if you end up replacing them due to popular vote, then you will have to remove most of the tape and foam otherwise the panel will get stuck/miss-trigger.

Contrary to what Allan has stated, after Chris and I worked on the stage for a year and a half, it was left in *perfect* condition. Also, if the "majority" want the brackets replaced, then so be it.   

It isn't up to Chris and I anymore, so you guys do what you want. Just letting you know that you will have to redo the entire stage if you were to replace the brackets. The stage won't be as flush as well, probably comparable to the DDR stage at ACME at the moment if the brackets were to go back on. Since the "majority" appears to want the brackets replaced, that is probably the direction you should go. I'm not entire sure who the "majority" is but I can say it isn't the modern ITG community.

Having said that, we've returned the all the brackets to Bill today so I'm sure you will get your hands on them ASAP.

Read September 30, 2014, 06:12:39 PM #6

To clarify, this question has come up because no fewer than four players have separately approached me and asked me to put the brackets back on. I told them I'd only do it if the majority agreed, and then created this poll.

Personally, I'm abstaining from voting, since I don't care either way. I just want to make sure that absolutely everybody in this community feels heard, including the stamina players.
Read September 30, 2014, 06:43:01 PM #7

I'm not sure where my statement needed anything to the contrary. I believe it was perfect when you guys left them too.

In any case I really want to give perspective here on how this affects things... if you don't play often or haven't tried to adjust you stand to have a slight inconvenience and then realize higher end play. If you do play and have already reached such heights you stand to have your play devastated and you'll have to go back to old stuff youve already worked through. 

Seriously some of us feel like we're going to get utterly screwed because of a lack of even trying the new mods. Its a slight inconvenience for the more casual vs. really screwing up the competitive crowd... Just please take this into account when you vote. Some of us care a whole whole lot about this, so please only cast a vote if you have a strong preference and play regularly at Acme. Thanks for your consideration.
Read September 30, 2014, 07:46:07 PM #8

Some of us care a whole whole lot about this, so please only cast a vote if you have a strong preference and play regularly at Acme. Thanks for your consideration.
Fair enough.  I don't really play regularly at Acme, so perhaps I should remove the vote I cast in favor of leaving the brackets off.


(I'm trying to point out that people who don't play regularly aren't necessarily against the brackets remaining off.  I didn't notice any real problem with them off.)

« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 07:48:36 PM by Nykkel »
Read September 30, 2014, 10:24:27 PM #9

Gerrak's got a point, and not to disregard Nykkel, nor others like him, but it votes of people who have not tried ACME's pads recently may not have as relevant an opinion on this than those who play regularly enough to understand the feel and flaws of the machine.

Anyone could vote, honestly, and even multi-log or something like that to rig the ballots.

Don't completely go on what I say though, but just fairly consider who's votes actually count for the sake of these pads.

However, everyone, keep your votes and please explain why you feel the pad should or should not receive its former brackets.
Please, no reason that's like "because I miss the old ITG pads" or "brackets are stupid."
Read September 30, 2014, 10:33:37 PM #10

It sounds like this could become another "My opinion is greater than that guys opinion" thread.

I don't think we should mess with the ITG pads if they're working right. Now with DDR X3 in the house, I think most of us "stuborn people" can enjoy that instead. That said, I HATE how some are arguing that this is "progression" and that "we need to get with the times". To claim "the rest of the country" is all playing 15+ charts and nothing else is incredibly presumptuous. These are the hardcore elite that make the most presence in the forums and community. You can't expect the (probably more numerous) less hardcore players to be posting youtube videos of their average achievements. But I would doubt that that elite group makes up more than 50% of the revenue at most of those locations (speaking nationally here, not just Acme).

TLDR: I'd leave the pads as-is if they're working great. But I hate hearing people assuming that their opinion is the universal one just because the people posting about ITG on Youtube are hardcore players.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:36:15 PM by Suko »
Read September 30, 2014, 10:46:25 PM #11

I would argue that every reason for or against can ultimately be reduced to individual personal preference.The truth of the matter is that I've seen plenty of oldschool players adjust to no brackets just fine since we modded the machine, and every East Coast tournament I've ever been to has been on a machine with brackets and those players seem to do fine at stamina stuff. Playing a way that isn't your preference may introduce a learning curve at first, but I can promise that it's not impossible EITHER WAY, and the reason I set the vote up as simply as possible is because I am tired of people trying to make "this is for the good of the whole community" arguments on the behalves of others.

 What's good for the community is what the community wants. The way we figure out what the community wants is by getting numbers. If you guys wanna try to sway each other here be my guest, but I don't appreciate anybody trying to discourage local community members from voting for what they want for any reason, and I am not okay with people implying that some players' votes should count for less than other players' votes. If you live in Washington and/or play at ACME Bowl, your vote counts as one vote. Otherwise, it counts as zero votes. Nobody's votes get extra weight, because this is not an Oligarchy. If the vote reveals that the majority of the community members want the machine a different way than you do, be an adult and adjust or get over it. End of story.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:49:51 PM by Laura »
Read September 30, 2014, 11:48:54 PM #12

It works well
We can all play on it
These are good things
Read October 01, 2014, 12:03:57 AM #13

I honestly say leave the brackets off just due to the fact its easier to stream on select songs without them being there. Also, why mess with something that already works with little issue???
Read October 01, 2014, 11:35:50 AM #14

i like how two separate one post accounts recently started posting, one just quoting another post and contributing nothing else. i wonder if these two accounts voted on this poll? they also happened to swing the poll in a certain party's favor. hmm

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:41:08 AM by THOT CATALOG »
Read October 01, 2014, 01:47:44 PM #15

Just FYI I do intend to sanity check the results as part of the decision making process. I do not intend to allow multiple votes from the same person or votes from people who don't come here to play.
Read October 01, 2014, 01:57:58 PM #16

Hi again all  Grin

If you live in Washington and/or play at ACME Bowl, your vote counts as one vote
I think it should be just "and" here... Please, only vote if you actually play at least somewhat regularly at Acme Bowl and have a strong preference and have actually tried the current state of things! And please keep in mind why you have such an opinion. I want to remind people that we put these mods in for a reason! And it has culminated into:
It works well
We can all play on it
These are good things

Ok also:
I would argue that every reason for or against can ultimately be reduced to individual personal preference
Here is other reasoning: it requires an unreasonable amount of energy to have to 'reach into a crater' to hit the arrow. Real dance floors are flat, and it doesn't make sense to have such craters. Plus, many hard songs are designed to 'slide' very fast (as in, were written by players who do this with this minimalist play in mind. If not sliding then very minimal lifting), and this just really isn't doable at least on the original design. Leaving the brackets off allows people to not catch their feet between arrows and do things like play in socks without getting their feet torn up.

So there's a real reason! Please keep it in mind! The pad works great with the mods and I honestly thought everyone was happy with this...

Ok lastly, I hope my argument above was better stated if this was the interpretation originally, but addressing:
I HATE how some are arguing that this is "progression" and that "we need to get with the times".
Many of you guys didn't come to IWSS 1/2 but they were honestly two of the biggest tournaments we've ever run in Washington. I think maybe one or two Sakuracons rival them, but they were on flush pads and many people from all over the country showed up to compete in hardcore stamina and speed stuff. Since we put in the mods and started playing in this national competitive community I've seen higher attendance at Acme then for years prior, and I've seen people working on harder stuff than ever, and for me it's amazing to have those kinds of passionate players again. To assert that this hasn't helped motivate greatness in play is mistaken! Go to Acme and you will see the most lively play you've seen there in years!

I don't mean to belittle any people who are more casual or who haven't yet reached the level where these changes make a big difference; believe me, I play all kinds of charts at all levels and I'm nobody in the grand scheme of stamina and speed players, but these pads really do work great for everyone if you just give them a chance! I've gotten high 99s on crossovers, foot switches, I've quadded several songs, etc. I'm sure if you guys give them a chance you'd see how good they currently are!

Thanks for your consideration.
Read October 01, 2014, 02:16:28 PM #17

I appreciate the friendly and helpful tone of your last post, Gerrak.

I do want to point out that the claim that recessed pads require an unreasonable amount of effort to use for higher level play is definitely subjective, though. What one person finds unreasonable, another might find to be part of the challenge that makes the game fun in the first place. (I personally find no-bar play on 11s+ unreasonable, but there are people who do it intentionally because they find it enjoyable and those people can successfully pass those songs that way, as a less-charged example.) That isn't to say that posting your feelings on the matter is bad; maybe others will agree with you and change their minds! But it's definitely a subjective matter.

I would also like to point out that socks play is technically in violation of ACME's dress code, not to be a contentious ass but because I don't want anyone to get kicked out or to give ACME a reason to be unhappy with the community.
Read October 01, 2014, 02:32:52 PM #18

point: don't modders have the narrows machine all to themselves? can't there be one unmolested machine? what happened to that? doesn't one modded and one unmodded machine solve everything or is every machine not being modded an issue? i mean having two "home machines" seems a little absurd Smiley

edit: let's take this a step further:
all of the recent scores from modders i've seen are taken at acme. are the lot of you that ungrateful and entitled as to needing one machine you'll never play AND the machine that everyone else would like to use? all of the recent month's shit is culminating into the ultimate entitlement: no unmodded machines, including one that is not the proposed "home machine" (acme) to aphr and abbeye  (their words, not mine). one machine wasn't enough. 2 machines aren't enough? what next?
"home machine" should constitute a machine at someone's house, not a public place that is a community machine. this is the entitlement mentality i am getting at.

In other words, the pad is GREAT; if you have a problem stop whining about it and just learn how to play modern ITG or go back to DDR.
another rich case in point. ironically i think you need to step up your game gerrak. perhaps you should go back to ddr if you can't adapt. isn't your stamina really great? i mean you're passing hard charts and all? then again... you have don't have too many quads? perhaps you could gain something from the smaller timing windows in extreme.
back to the point though: the brackets shouldn't make a difference if you are truly "end game" right?

Oh. Would it hurt if I tried to play 15s on them with socks?
friendly reminder that it's clearly stated that in acme's rules that you need shirts and *shoes* on Wink

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 08:17:19 PM by i'm the shit »
Read October 01, 2014, 05:38:10 PM #19

If it's that big of a deal, why not have one pad with brackets and one without? That way everyone wins. :\
Read October 01, 2014, 05:44:03 PM #20

If it's that big of a deal, why not have one pad with brackets and one without? That way everyone wins. :\
Wouldn't that mess up doubles players pretty hard?
Read October 01, 2014, 05:56:52 PM #21

Double players don't benefit from having the brackets removed at all, so it's kind of a moot point.
Read October 01, 2014, 08:02:56 PM #22

If it's that big of a deal, why not have one pad with brackets and one without? That way everyone wins. :\
they actually have a modded machine that they were given COMPLETE control of because acme is no longer theirs to mod and is under mv/bill's DIRECT jurisdiction.  the big deal is this is an entitlement issue that is keeping many players from returning to the arcade. many players didn't like what was going on and stopped going and were silenced/shouted down or don't feel comfortable voicing their opinions. this is the 800lb gorilla in the room that everyone is skirting around and frankly the problem won't go away until you put your foot down and draw clear boundaries. hard to build context/gain a sense of the size of this debate within just one thread but read the wording in gerrak's posts to get a feeling for one side of the debate. if you want more context go to the acme bowl thread and there is quite a bit of discussion on this and the surrounding matters.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 08:13:28 PM by i'm the shit »
Read October 01, 2014, 11:07:13 PM #23

also: friendly reminder that it's clearly stated that in acme's rules that you need shirts and *shoes* on Wink

Nice try there, Iori :/, but they actually only refer to the dress code when you're generally walking around the building, not so much if you're sticking to the ITG machine. Just thought you should know.

Also, Iori has a good point about there being "two home machines" in public venues. It does seem unfair that the modders (which possibly includes me) are hogging both. At least, to a certain degree, I feel that the ACME cab is already starting to revert to the old-style of gameplay, and that the Narrows cab is advancing into the future style of gameplay.

We need to understand, on both sides, that there are those who like to preserve the genuine feel of the old ITG, and there are those that want to move on to a higher caliber of skill.

Maybe it's best that we do keep one cab available for those who hate modding and want nothing else to touch the machine. Change is going to deter them.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:09:42 PM by KLOC (Lil Kevin) »
Read October 01, 2014, 11:16:41 PM #24

I want to make it clear that APHR and I have completely relinquished our control over the ACME machine. It isn't our responsibility anymore and it isn't up to us to make decisions on behalf of the community with regards to the stage/modding.

If the ACME community decides that they want to replace the brackets, then so be it. As it stands, there are 2 modded stages in Washington state. So if there is a demand for a non-modded stage then I believe ACME's should come to a decision as a community.

It is to my understanding this issue was resolved a while ago, but has resurfaced do to this poll, so once again we must "discuss" keeping the modding, adding the brackets, etc., but we don't want any part of this because our responsibilities now lie with Narrows.

The Narrows machine was entrusted to APHR, Bauregaurd, and I. We were given 100% control and keys to work on the machine/stage. We have modified the machine to fit the needs of those who desire to play on a modded stage. The machine at Narrows was in desperate need of TLC, hopefully to bring in more players and to help make the Narrows converted cab shine once more.

Iori241/THOT CATALOG/i'm the shit, I'm asking if you could stop bringing us into this discussion.

As I stated before, we want nothing more to do with ACME and its cabinet. If ACME's cabinets modifications are where the issues keep occurring, then leave it up to Laura and Tony to change it to fit the demand. If players demand to revert the stage back to its recessed state, then that is where it should go. If the players demand the brackets be replaced, then that is where it should go. If the players demand cardboard over tape, then that is where it should go...

Point is, it isn't our responsibility any longer and we don't want to be apart of this discussion any longer. Please settle this once and for all and move on.
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