Is it allowed to upgrade the SuperNova cabinet to run Stepmania but still keep everything DDR style, including the recessed pads? That way you can keep the DDR, and be able to treat it just as much as ITG? Or is this all too much to hope for? It's probably a pipe dream.

I would be so much more relieved if this debate wasn't as heated before.

Depends on what Bill wants and has the budget for, I suppose. I wouldn't strictly be against changing the game in the SuperNOVA cabinet, but it's a moot point anyway: I want "my" ITG dedicab back. That is, the one whose hardware is set up about the same as any other ITG dedicab, one I can play on and reasonably expect to perform the same on a different cabinet.

I would go as far as to say, the people who want the pads flush are playing a different game than the rest of us and modding "our" cabinet to do it. I would not be happy being relegated to a Betson stage because a minority of players want to take over the ITG dedicab, simple as that.

The funny thing is, I literally cannot think of a single dance gamer I socialise with who is happy about the flush modding. Seven, off the top of my head, have actively spoken against it. As far as I can tell, no one's strongly pushed back against it until recently.

For the record: I would much rather play DDR on a DDR cabinet than ITG, to be honest.

edit: i guess i don't need to address/push the issue any further since the issue is resolved.guess that's that.

What we will do is remove the modding from the ITG stage at ACME and return the stage back to pre-modding today, 8/9/2014. If there are issues with the stage after removing the modding, please contact Bill and his technicians to fix the stage. Since there is no modding left on the stage, it is no longer our responsibility to fix the stage.

It is clear that APHR and I do not have enough people who do like the stage modded speaking up on the forums and unfortunately this may exclude certain players who play at ACME often. From what we can gather on the forums, the majority on the forums are vocalizing their objection to the modded stage at ACME. So APHR and I will remove the modifications done to the stage.

We aren't trying to exclude the players who like the stage flushed or those who play in socks, but it is what the majority wants. APHR and I are trying to comply.

THE STAGE WILL RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL STATE TODAY, 8/9/2014. Please mind, that removing the modding at 5:30 PM will take roughly 5-10 minutes to complete, so plan your trip to ACME accordingly.

Hey uh Iori how did you get a screenshot from my facebook?

Also, to be clear, my stance on that whole thread was basically "Everybody is being ridiculous and I just want to make fun of all of the attitudes in the dance game community."

jesus is everywhere

NEW RULE FOR THIS THREAD.

BEFORE YOU CAN POST IN THIS THREAD AGAIN, YOU MUST REPLY TO THE ACME MODDED STAGE POLL.

Thanks BlueSS for starting a poll! Hopefully, as a community we can move pass this issue and resolve this argument.

Considering we have a poll taking place. I feel it would be important to postpone the removal of the modding. So APHR and I should give it a little bit of time to see the outcome.

Maybe then we can actually play some dance games and dare I say it, have some fun

Hey so I'll upload the pic when I get home but FYI ACME has new dress code signs which specifically state that shoes must be worn at all times so I guess you guys can't play in socks anymore or something

To anyone questioning the questions I have in the poll, here is my reasoning.
My goal for this site is to encourage a healthy community of music gamers in the PNW. Healthy also includes profitable machines for the arcade operators in the area. Spending money at the arcade is one way to help foster our current community and ensure that 1) the machines stay in arcades due to making money and 2) the machine stays repaired due to the arcade operator having money to make repairs.

There are other ways of contributing to the community such as (but not limited to) helping run events, encouraging other people who are playing, or being a cool person to talk to about music games.

We all hurt our community when we discourage people from playing music games. Whether or not someone plays at ACME is EXTREMELY RELEVANT to the discussion about what to do with Acme's pads. If someone does not ever play at Acme, their opinion means little on this matter. On the flip side, if you are avoiding Acme due to this issue, you are someone who has been discouraged from playing music games in our community due to the changes.

The goal of the poll is to verify 1) who is playing at Acme 2) what their thoughts are. The converse of this is also to learn who is NOT playing at Acme and what their thoughts are.

If the Acme ITG machine makes money, the entire community is better off. More $ for the machine means 1) it stays at Acme and 2) it stays repaired. More people playing music games = what this community is about. The more that machine is there, the more people will randomly start playing it and join our community as a result.

TL;DR: Anyone or anything that hurts the number of people playing dance games in our community or the profitability of one of the machines that keeps this community alive is an offense to me and the welfare of this entire community.

Something else to consider is how the flushed pads might affect the learning curve.  All of us - literally ALL - started on recessed pads. I know that learning doubles on the flushed arrows was too frustrating so I switched to DDR only for doubles; what if new players are having this same experience and just giving up?

Not trying to add gasoline to the fire, just a thing worth considering. Pushing upper difficulties is all well and good, but we need to make sure that backwards compatibility exists for potential new players.

I never had issues with stock pads playing doubles.  I remember clearing 12s and one 13 (energizer) at acme.  No baby powder and no modded pads.  We will survive without it

No that's what I'm saying; doubles is way easier on stock pads with no powder. The modding makes learning difficult.

If the modded pads cause people to play less music games, that's an offense to the community too...

The hard part in all this is measuring anything of "new players" and "the people who probably play at Acme but we never see play". Also, ITG was never designed for beginners/new people to play. The evidence is entirely around how the interface was built, the songs the game uses, and the community it was marketed to.

The flushed pads does make learning doubles harder, I can admit that.

Question for people of ACME: how often do you see new people playing?  And how often are they playing doubles?  And how often are you saying "hi" to these new people to encourage them to be a part of the community?

To answer your question, I only ever see people I recognize attempt double. Double mode is not for the faint of heart, and never really has been. People don't casually walk up to the game and try double.

From my time here, I see quite a few new players at ACME trying out ITG. People playing songs with difficulties ranging from 5s and 6s to 12s on singles. I always encourage them, and refer them to the forums to be a part of the community (even though I never post). None of these players play doubles. In fact, I've never seen a real doubles player play on the ITG at ACME...

I mentioned doubles not because I think new players are trying to learn doubles but as an example of someone trying to learn where the arrows are and finding it difficult because the flushed pad mod caters to people playing 13s+ and not people learning where the arrows are. The same could apply to singles is all I'm saying, and it'd basically be impossible to measure aside from tracking the influx of new players over time or something.

Basically, I just want to make sure everybody thinks through all the implications.

I can only base my answer off my own experience. So as far as seeing new players at ACME I have probably seen three in the past 5 months. They have been going on a more consistent basis for me to consider them new players in the dance game community as opposed to someone playing a game, goofing off and leaving.  

I know there are two regular players who are not on these forums who play Thursday nights and they play doubles occasionally. I hardly see any new players playing doubles.I am not sure of the reason for it but prior to modding I didn't see many double players as well. I'm not saying there are no new double players at ACME, it is just that I haven't seen them.

I do kind of notice that new are "randoms" tend to gravitate towards DDR. People seem more inclined to start out on DDR that ITG.

I find that I reach out to the newer player base especially if I have seen the person more than once. I try to be encouraging as much as possible. Although on the shyer side I do what I can to talk to other new players.

(What I mean by random players is someone who never plays and is trying the game out for the first time for fun or is just goofing off).

I'm glad it seems to have calmed down a little all up in here. I should really know everyone involved in this debate, since I've played all the time there for ever and ever.

Ok, the most important thing that I can possibly remind everyone of right at this moment... is that... the new sensors that we determined were the problem still aren't installed quite yet.

Guys we debated for years over a more flush pad. All the major other communities have done it because it's been shown to be more reasonable for high end play. I mean I've played in 'craters' for years, but it honestly really sucked to be limited by that at the high end. I hate to have to be the one to say this obvious fact, but real dance floors are actually typically flat. The indentation doesn't really make sense and isn't conducive to the level of play that the game has developed into. People who get to the 14+ level inevitably realize this. But with modifications, a much richer and more fulfilling end-game can be realized. I think the problem is primarily the sensors, and perhaps some people, which formerly included myself, need to maybe make just a slight adjustment and just not rest your foot where the bracket used to prominently be, since now it may false trigger another arrow.

These are good modifications when we get the proper hardware. It's what modern communities play on, and we should just keep working on it until we get it right. The few strong nay-sayers I honestly think hardly play there anyway, since I haven't heard their complaints personally about it, and I play there all the time, at all times of day, and so do both Chris and Abbye... The fact that this is not being handled on a more personal level like it always has speaks to the lack of real involvement in play there by those most critical of the current status.




As far as new play, there are definitely at least 3-5 new regular players, as in once or twice per week at least, at Acme that I have met. All of them I would confidently venture prefer the more flush pad, and at least 3 I can think of I have personally adopted played with to work on various aspects of their play and help them improve. There is absolutely still "backwards-compatibility", as Laura calls it, and the newer players are a refreshing change to how downhill things had been going prior to this last year.

I still see randoms play on the machine as much as ever before from my years' observations, because they're "randoms" and they don't even know the difference anyway! I also should state that I, personally, have felt reinvigorated by the pad modifications, and my play is as intense as ever, and I'm in better shape than ever because of the sheer epic-ness of doing the charts everyone else was able to do for years without such a handicap of the indents.

From my perspective on watching attendance at Acme also, it has seemed to be re-energized in the last year, has it not? And more community events and tournaments than we've had in a good number of years? This is greatly in-part brought on by the competition allowed by these modifications. In short, these are definitely helpful changes to the player-base overall, and we shouldn't forget this. We just need to make sure it finally gets done with the proper hardware.

I should also briefly state that I used to have to call in all the time to have a mechanic fix the pad. Since being put into Chris' care, it's been consistently better than ever, for me anyway. I've gotten several quads too, though I'm more into the hard stuff right now.




Ok, finally, doubles do in fact suck on the current pad. The sensors had to be put basically only on the inside, and since doubles uses a lot more of the arrow, especially the inside ones, it's been downright awful. HOWEVER, thats why we have the new sensors that have yet to be put in!    Which is supposed to fix this! Also we should just have doubles for single credits on the SN2 machine. That would make many people quite happy I'm sure, including me, and probably would generate a lot more revenue on it anyway! But this is Bill's call of course.

Anyway this is my 2 cents so far. Let's please keep the debate free of so much hostility! Put that RAGE on the STAGE!    Happy arrows, all

I really really think a valid compromise is "raise the arrows but not enough so they are completely flush." Players who learn by feeling the brackets can still feel them, but stamina beasts can still do their thing, and most importantly PLAYERS CAN ADAPT TO EITHER SORT OF MACHINE WITH EQUAL EASE!

Also, for anyone who cares, SN2 is now audible!

Has SN2 been moved, or is its volume just raised?

It'd be awesome of each machine could be heard just as well without drowning each other out.

also

My sentiments exactly.

Even I have trouble with the inner Left and Right arrows sometimes on Doubles, and I would very much like to learn to play some hard Doubles as well. I am awaiting for the outcome of having new sensors.

The volume has been raised but we tried very hard to make sure that each machine could be easily heard by whoever is playing it even when both are being played simultaneously.

Since it has come up in a few places that people like what flushed pads do for their scores, I do want to point out as nicely as possible that ITG doesn't exist in a vacuum; there is a national community, and if we are talking about improving at the game we need to reach some consensus on what the game actually is.

I've been all over the country to play and enter tournaments, and I will say that if players care about improving on an absolute scale, as in their passes and scores actually matter on a national level, playing on recessed pads is really the only thing that makes sense. Wherever you go will be varying levels of recessed or flush, and it is far easier to score on flushed pads after practicing on recessed pads than the other way around. Think about how difficult quads were at SPERGIN4 compared to ACME, and now imagine you just flew to Pennsylvania for an ITG tournament and their machine is more like Suko's, only all of their players have been playing on such a machine every time they practice.

This may not be relevant though since I think I'm the only Seattle player who travels for tournaments regularly.

Everyone I've heard of eventually moves to reasonably flush pads... It's not about 'raising scores' because it won't on songs that aren't like 14+, mine certainly havent. It's about not having to reach into a crater when theres aaaaaall the arrows to hit! We should be just modifying them correctly. It works better for everyone I've seen play hard stuff, and it makes sense to have a flat dance floor, like dance floors are. Or at least almost flat, I mean I believe there should be a slight indent so you can still feel where you are, but not enough to have to 'reach into'. The game wasn't originally designed with this kind of play in mind, so a retuning of the hardware is a natural progression, and should just be done right like we're trying to do. I can also remind people that there is another public ITG machine at Narrows Bowl, which those who want to play in a more old-school style can certainly use too. I played there for a long long time before playing at Acme.

I have to agree that it's foolish to make any decision before the new sensors are installed. The pads are currently not modded the way they likely will be when the new sensors are installed, and everyone might find that the pads are far more playable once that happens.