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February 06, 2011, 02:57:56 PM - ORIGINAL POST -

Discuss this topic here.
Read February 06, 2011, 03:32:19 PM #1

*Continues the healthy debates*

Ok so level caps.  Now, many people seem to be perceiving level caps as what will absolutely, guaranteed, be played in the round, when that isn't the case.  The main point of level caps is to give a min/maximum difficulty possible in a round.  In my opinion, in an ITG tourney, making the cap too low basically turns into a DDR tourney with better graphics.  Making it higher basically says 'okay, lets expand on the possible charts playable in any given round', not 'okay, so in round 2 everyone will play 11s, round 3 12s, etc'.

Even in the expert division, which many people are saying 'that's where the stamina players should go', NOTHING says that any given player, myself included, would pick an 11+ on any round.  Look at any given high level itg tourney where round selections are basically free for alls.  People pick something between their strengths, their opponents seeming weakness, and whatever the feel like playing at the time.  I've went throuh entire tourneys playing nothing over an 11, and 12+s being picked maybe 6 times through the tourney, when anyone could have played Vertex^2 first round.  Why?  Because personally once I 'warm up', i'm pretty consistent at certain 9-11s that most other people aren't.  Sure, I can play pande and beat most players, but why do that when I can play a fun chart i'm really consistent at and win my pick without breaking a sweat?

It seems there's a weird implication that level cap raised = EVERYONE WILL PICK THE MAXIMUM DIFFICULTY!...When a good amount of your playstyles and speech says you'd rather play 9s all day.  Raising it should be looked at as opening up strategies and even play for various playstyles and physiques, not *But we don't wanna play 12s!!!*
Read February 06, 2011, 03:39:40 PM #2

Caps exist so that there is no potentially horrible, embarrassing defeat suffered by anyone.

Many of us in the standard bracket would suffer a horrible, embarrassing defeat if we were forced to play a 12.

Therefore, the level cap should be lowered to 11.  Nobody gets horrifically embarrassed, and there are plenty of stamina 11 charts, so stamina is still a strategy. But at least people would have a fighting chance of at least passing it with higher than an 80%.

(Note: Horrible defeats are not fun.  For anybody.)
Read February 06, 2011, 04:04:36 PM #3

@Tricksy - Now that is the logic I don't get.

Cue theoretical ITG tourney round.  You vs Stamina McBrute.

Song 1 - They pick a 12 that you have no hope of passing.  This is where you walk off, go grab a drunk, and kick back while they're forced to pass their song choice.
Song 2 - you pick a 9 or something.  If you get beat on it, then you couldn't beat them in stamina OR your own deserve to lose.  If you beat them, ok great!  On to 3rd song random.
Song 3 - .....70ish percent of ITG expert charts are 9s and 10s.  The odds are entirely in your favor of a 'tech' battle vs a 'stamina' battle, whats more your opponent has already played 2 songs, one being something hard, to your 1.

It's like your odds of beating a one trick pony aren't good enough, so you need to raise them higher? O.o
Read February 06, 2011, 04:13:38 PM #4

Song 1 - They pick a 12 that you have no hope of passing.  This is where you walk off, go grab a drunk, and kick back while they're forced to pass their song choice.

This is what shouldn't happen.  That's the argument.  It should never be so unfair that I can't even try to pass a song in the STANDARD DIVISION.
Read February 06, 2011, 04:20:31 PM #5

To that end one could go further say "the cap should be lowered to 10, because people would suffer a horrible, embarrassing defeat if we were forced to play an 11". Or they could go further and say, "it should be lowered to 9, because people would suffer...etc. etc."

Theres no basis for the perfect point being 11 making such an argument against a 12. There's also many of us in the standard bracket who will easily 80+ a 12, and 90+ an 11, even higher scores respectively, without feeling a remote horrible embarrassment, or even needing a breather at that.

I can't put into words how a higher level cap seems to be making people run for their lives thinking they'll only be playing maximum difficulty alloted. That is not the case, I in support of the 12 cap, haven't even thought of a 12 to pick in a tourney yet. One will know what they're getting into if a 12 is selected, and the bow out rule is there spare one the horrible embarrassing defeat.

Why is there so much commotion about lowering the level cap when (in the current drafting), 12s aren't even allowed until the finals? Only two people will make it there, and I hope if one has what it takes to make it to a final round, they won't run away at the notion of 12s in a final. If one wants to have a cap of 11 until later rounds, thats cool with me, but 9 cap first round is low balling it pretty heavily, I even feel the same to a degree about 10s, but hey, anything higher than 9 cap first round is progress for now.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 04:36:59 PM by neempoppa »
Read February 06, 2011, 04:28:44 PM #6

This is what shouldn't happen.  That's the argument.  It should never be so unfair that I can't even try to pass a song in the STANDARD DIVISION.

Soo....what's your definition of a 'standard' player in this line?  If you were an expert you would be able to pass the song.  If THEY were an 'expert' they'd have seeded better on the qualifier and qualified as such.  The only difference between a 'stamina' player by said definition being in one division vs the other is that in expert, they'd get quickly beat in both 9 footers AND stamina.  Surely you're not saying that the stamina player should be in expert division if anything.  And the logic of 'he should just get better at 9s then' is about as logical as me telling you to go gain some real stamina.

So if a player that can't do 10s well and can do 9s pretty decently made the same argument at you picking a 10 on them, they'd classify in a 'LIGHT' division lol? Grin

This goes back to my logic in that the bigger tourney threat is ALWAYS the guy that can tri star 9s and 10s, not the one that can barely pass 14s.

edit: Neem ftw. Smiley  It just seems silly that the caps basically say 'Okay, no 12s until the final round, however these rules are designed so that there's basically a 99% chance the 2 that make it to the finals won't even pick an 11.'

« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 04:31:00 PM by NekoSempai »
Read February 06, 2011, 05:33:53 PM #7

This is what shouldn't happen.  That's the argument.  It should never be so unfair that I can't even try to pass a song in the STANDARD DIVISION.

Yes, you can try to pass a song in the standard division.  =]

You argue that a bow out shouldn't happen, it should never never be so unfair that you can't try to pass a song. Solution: try to pass the song, or pass it. You also argue it should never be so unfair that you will suffer an embarrassing defeat? Solution: bow out. Those original arguments of yours go against one another, but hey the solutions still stand.  Wink

Thanks bunches & I agree Sempai  Smiley the theoretical  tech vs stamina McBrute illustrates the point perfectly that the tri star player for 9s and 10s has nothing to fear, even if the random song went on that 30% chance it wasn't a 9/10, stamina mcbrute might be quite tired from the round that the tech bowed out and rested during, hence a probable win for the tech. The odds couldn't be much more nicely catered.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 12:23:50 AM by neempoppa »
Read February 06, 2011, 11:53:20 PM #8

I don't wholly agree with either Tricksy's or Neko/Neem's argument here. I don't really care about a tournament being "unfair" - if someone is better than me, I don't really care how humiliating the way they defeat me is.  I get off on that shit, ask Tony. Wink

My issue is essentially... there are several players in this area who don't want to play charts that are ranked 12 and above EVER - not just in a tournament context.  ITG is simply a different kind of game for us than for players who are constantly trying to pass songs of increasing difficulty level, and the idea of a "standard" tournament ORIGINALLY came as a way for us to compete against one another on the types of charts we like to play.  It got co-opted into becoming this whole "Still for badass players, but capped at 12s" tournament, which... in my opinion, at that point everyone should enter one tournament and there should be no caps.  If, to you, ITG is a game about constantly playing and trying to time the hardest charts available to you, play against others like you, even if they're way better.  We're just a bunch of former DDR players who like ITG for its chart creativity and diversity but don't enjoy upper level stuff, and that's why we wanted our own division. 
Read February 07, 2011, 12:49:34 AM #9

The Standard tournament is not just for those former DDR players that enjoy ITG but don't enjoy upper level material, the standard division is respectfully for all of us in the community who don't fit into the top 6 category expert div. tournament. The idea in the interest check thread was originally proposed by Hollie and Gerrak, showing an 11/12 cap, but for the purpose to accommodate the players not in top 6.

We gotta respect each other's differences within the standard division, that all of us play different difficulties/styles of songs usually.
Read February 07, 2011, 01:08:46 AM #10

To attempted emphasize the Expert =/= Stamina whore, if I qual for expert in PADMISS I promise I will not pick ANYTHING over an 11 through the whole thing. 

Here's a thought in theory, if I or anyone else were to hold an 8-11 difficulty tourney where anyone could enter, would all of those that fall into Laura/Tricksy's playstyles still enter?  Where you're guaranteed that you'll be going through Gerrak / Keby / insert name other player that can both stamina AND tech at some point to winning?  Or is the whole premise 'lets let the expert players go do their own thing and we have our tourney?'

...I still hardly see how a tourney is a requirement for competition.  We should just start a challengable ranking system or something.
Read February 07, 2011, 01:34:38 AM #11

I would love to have an 8-11 tourney with Keby/Gerrak/etc.  The whole "Expert division" thing was someone else's idea.  I just don't like the difference in gameplay brought about by 12s +, and thus avoid playing them.  I would feel funny winning an 11s and under tournament knowing that none of our best players were there, and openly welcome the competition.

That's actually what I wish the "standard' tournament was - a tournament where only lower difficulty songs are available for play, regardless of the skill of the players who enter it.
Read February 07, 2011, 01:41:38 AM #12

That's actually what I wish the "standard' tournament was - a tournament where only lower difficulty songs are available for play, regardless of the skill of the players who enter it.

Which makes WAY more sense to me.  Like, i'd have probably had nothing to add if there was an open 11 difficulty capped tourney and say, an 8 man round robin stamina fest tourney for those that wished to enter it.  My whole complaint was wanting to cater to both kinds of players, the 'I don't like hard stuff', and the 'I prefer hard stuff' players.

Another time I suppose :3
Read February 07, 2011, 01:51:36 AM #13

Yeah, that sounds perfect to me, too. 

I never meant to make it sound like "Expert" players shouldn't enter this hypothetical "Standard" tournament, just that players who want to play 12s + shouldn't. Smiley
Read February 07, 2011, 02:03:54 AM #14

An 8-11 tourney doesn't sound too bad for intermediate players (even though I do like playing some 12's in tourney's). I don't need to play anything above a 12 to easily win over anyone that doesn't have stamina. In fact, it actually gives me more of a challenge and makes it more exciting/interesting to see how close the matches will get. I think it'd put more pressure on everyone to time better and push themselves instead of tiring ones self out playing 12's+. It would kinda be more like a DDR tournament except its ITG based.

Stamina player's (like myself), I play just about anything from 8's to 14's most of the time and I have no problem with playing relatively easy songs. If your an "expert" player, you should be able to do anything from easy songs to somewhat hard songs.

I still don't understand why the level cap is such a big issue. Expert player's shouldn't concern themselves too much about how high the level cap should be (since they should be able to do almost 11's and below in their sleep).

The way I look at it if the level cap stays as it is, is a challenge for expert players to test their awesome skills.

Anyways, if anything I said doesn't make too much sense, its because I'm super tired and probably wasn't well thought out Tongue I can clarify anything that didn't make sense. Just some ideas I guess.

Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about... I F'ed up... Cheesy

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 02:12:27 AM by NSX »
Read February 07, 2011, 12:54:14 PM #15

Ok this is gonna be mean (and colorful!) but bear with me. I'm really really tired of hearing the same old shit...

NONE of you play at Acme regularly except NSXX and hence know relatively nothing about what you're talking about of the relative skill level of the entrants in this tournament. Of the top 22 players in the area as they will be seeded (6 in the Expert and 16 in the "Standard") probably at least 18 of them can at least pass 12s when not totally rusty, and this is a low-end estimate. Most of these entrants don't post here, so it's up to the KNOWLEDGABLE few of us who know the level of skill of people like Nimm, Darryl, Hollie, Chris, Abby, Andrew, Zach, (do you guys arguing for 11-cap know all/any of these people I wonder?) and the dozen other players I don't know their names or can't remember off the top of my head that I am physically there and see do 12s at Acme REGULARLY to come up with a ruleset that is fair to EVERYONE.

Dance games are about TIMING/TECHNICALITY (or reading, or whatever you want to call it), STAMINA, and SPEED, and every song can be pretty much classified as one or more of those types. I.e. 9 and many 10s are generally Timing/Technical songs, Pandemonium (13) is mostly a Stamina song, Determinator is mostly a Speed song (for obvious reason), etc.

A 11 cap CLEARLY favors Suko, Tricksy, Laura, etc. over the dozen other entrants that will be in the same division because you are players who have played for years and rely on timing. So how is this fair at all to the other 75% of entrants who are way better than you at Speed and Stamina, the other half of the game? If you can answer this question, then please by all means do so and I'll shut up.

In the same regard, if the lower cap of the tournament ended up at 11's, this would CLEARLY favor the stamina/speed people in the end, which is why this is not the case, to keep it fair to the timing AND stamina/speed players for the whole tournament.

Look, if you suck at stamina stuff, then do some cardio and get better at it or please quit nagging about how it's "too hard." You're god damn right it's hard, it hurts, and you do it because the exercise is good for you and it's part of this PHYSICAL GAME. Those of us who are good at stamina all work on it a lot. And if you have a condition like asthma, knee problems, too tall/short, that sucks, but this should NOT BE A TOURNAMENT TO CATER TO THE INJURED, OUT OF SHAPE, TOO TALL/SHORT, TOO LAZY, OUT OF PRACTICE, OR OTHERWISE FULL OF EXCUSES.

Similarly, if you suck at timing/reading stuff, go play more god damn Stepmania and play 8's and 9's with an aim to beat your scores rather than just flailing out the hardest shit you can with no regard for (again) the other half of the game.

And for the love of God, stop thinking of this as a "Standard Level Tournament". As I said, of the 16 people in the "Standard Bracket" I would bet money that at least 12 of them can pass 12s, and at least 12 of them can 99 9s. If you can't do one or the other, you aren't good enough to enter. If you can't do both, you better work on what you suck at or come up with a really good strategy on how to beat people who have similar strengths to you.

If the ruleset were capped at 11s, I could pick out probably the 3 or so people who would dominate the tournament. If the lower cap were at 11s, I could do the same thing with a different 3 people. If the caps are where they are now, I have no idea who will win, and isn't that the point? Stop trying to cater the rules to you because you suck at part of the game, and go get better at that part of the game, or don't play this game competitively. The ruleset right now is pretty fair, except the tiny logistics like the qualifier and entry fee that everyone agrees is a little shaky.

I'm really sorry if this offends anyone, but this stuff needs to be said... No more argument should be necessary here.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:07:13 PM by Gerrak »
Read February 07, 2011, 01:06:14 PM #16

Look, Gerrak, we get your point.  The problem is that me, Suko, Sara, etc. have been saying that we want a tournament for our "section" of the game for years - before this particular tournament ever came up in the first place.  This thread is about level caps in general, not level caps for P.A.D.M.I.S.S., and I think that a tournament that's capped at 11 will get a particular segment of the community that doesn't typically enter tournaments to come out and play.  We don't want THIS tournament to cater to us, we want our own fucking tournament, and anyone who's a good enough sport to understand that if they're that good they'll beat us anyway is welcome to enter.  

Also, it's true that I don't play at ACME regularly, but I've played dance games in the Pacific Northwest for 10 years and I know plenty of older players who essentially dropped out of the community BECAUSE they liked the game where they stomped arrows up to about 10 feet but not the crazy stamina game.  Do you know Arkaiito? She goes to ACME sometimes and posted for awhile; I bet she'd enter a tournament with a low cap.  Rainault has entered all of our DDR tournaments but none of the ITG tournaments, despite the fact that he plays ITG.  I wonder if he'd enter.  You can't really use ACME to gauge the PNW players and their skill levels/interests when at least 10 players get the bulk of their play on private machines - largely because they prefer not to sit through people beasting dragonforce over and over.

EDIT: For that matter, if you don't want to cater to the out of shape, injured, etc, and think we should just fucking work out or whatever, the same goes for that list of ACME players.  If they deserved to enter your tournament, they'd practice 13s.  Why have two divisions at all?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:15:12 PM by Laura »
Read February 07, 2011, 01:14:30 PM #17

I'm sorry then if the discussion wasn't about this particular tournament, my post applies only to PADMISS and the argument surrounding it. I also am very aware of those who play on home machines, and I really hope we get a good number of these entrants as well. I think Rain and others would kick ass too, frankly. I'm trying to bring one or two of the guys that taught me how to play (who are more stamina players but kinda suck at timing) and I hope others bring friends too. In general, I'm all for an 11 capped tournament, but this should probably be hosted on a home machine since Acme doesn't like tournaments very often. Or else if they'll let us, shit let's do tournaments of all kinds all the time. I'm just concerned with getting right the few tournaments we can have there at present, and in particular, this upcoming one. It should also be noted that there's now practically a THIRD division on DDRSN2, so this is addressed already (Maxx Unlimited/Legend/PSMO, and other similar songs are basically 11s anyway so this is effectively the cap on DDR tournaments). Thanks for that compromise, KDDR Smiley

Edit: However
You can't really use ACME to gauge the PNW players and their skill levels/interests when at least 10 players get the bulk of their play on private machines
Not 10 players, more like 5 or 6, and it's not because they don't want to wait for dragonforce, since only Tuan and Keby play DF and hardly ever are these songs played at Acme, but because they have the $10000 to buy a machine or else have a friend who can split the cost or own it and let them play. And these DO play at Acme anyway and hence fall into the group of players that I'm referring to.

Dammit Laura... Edit edit:
We have two divisions because at present there is a large gap between the top 6 or so and the rest of the people who currently regularly play. Normally I'd say yes, only have one division and weed out those who havent practiced up. But this is still maybe a year off before the gap in skill is closed.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:21:16 PM by Gerrak »
Read February 07, 2011, 01:28:54 PM #18

I concede that I may have spoken for other players too readily.  I do know that a lot of the people I frequently talk to are put off by the fact that many of the newer ACME players sometimes give off an elitist attitude, but I don't know if that motivates them to avoid playing at ACME.  I often prefer to play on home machines so I don't feel like I'm being judged for needing to warm up with 8s for an hour, but that's me (and Tony.)

My problem with the "this is just for now and then the skill gap will be closed" thing is that in the next year, 12 more new players will come and then there will be a skill gap THERE, not to mention the fact that you and Keby will keep getting better faster than the newer ACME players.  You can always argue a skill gap. That's no reason not to have people enter the same tournament.  

In the past history of this community, the term standard tournament referred to tournaments FOR the "little guy" - it was the community's way of embracing us.  Having that co-opted and turned into something that's still exclusive is, in my opinion, a step back - and wholly unnecessary if the player base is as skilled as you feel they are.  Nobody wouldn't enter an ITG tournament because they'd lose; that's ridiculous.  Just do epic round robin finals.

Edit: Also, yes, the MA tournament is a great addition and I'm going to wipe the floor with everyone.  Grin
Read February 07, 2011, 01:30:11 PM #19

I think the nail on the head was hit when it was implied that the whole issue of this is that the area doesn't have tourneys very often, and because of which everyone who's been dying for a tourney wants it in whatever way they think would be best.

What's the lack of tourneys in the area due to?  It CLEARLY isn't lack of interest.  Even businesses that aren't that big of fans of monthlies or whatnot tend to reconsider when one explains the benefits of a larger fanbase, sponsors, and *cough* venuefees.

Nonetheless, I generally agree with what Gerrak said, hence the whole complaining about catering to 'tech' players thing.  Though I will say that as a player that can tech pretty well AND do 15s, you'll NEVER find me playing Dragonforce over and over :3.

@Laura, the problem with the 'if they deserved to enter your tournament, they'd practice 13s' is that the qualifier that will place people into the expert division that can play 13s, has NOTHING to do with ones ability to play 13s....being that the qual will not be over an 11....unless I read your intent with that statement wrong.

*edit* - Also I can agree with the whole 'standard tourney' is for the little guy logic as a way to embrace the lower end of the community, but this tourney schedule thus far basically has the 'little guy tourney' as the main event.  Expert round robin is all but an exhibition contest between 6 people, and MA is basically a side main event.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:35:22 PM by NekoSempai »
Read February 07, 2011, 01:34:07 PM #20


1. We don't have tournaments very often because ACME doesn't like them.  Now that more people have private machines, the possibility is there to have more if we can talk them into it. Smiley

2. You read my statement wrong.  My statement was basically that:

1. By Gerrak's logic, "the injured" just need need to practice more to pass 12s so he won't cater to them, BUT
2. He then states that he thinks there should be two divisions to give newer players a chance to catch up to the "upper tier" level.

So he won't cater to people because they "just need more practice," but then he's catering to a different subset of people who legitimately do just need more practice.  This logic is contradictory.  That's all I was saying.
Read February 07, 2011, 01:38:05 PM #21

@Laura, ah.  Though I think the intent of his statement was being perfectly fine catering to those that are striving to get overall better and just haven't gotten there yet, but not catering to those who have no interest in raising their difficulty bars and have no interest in ever playing something past what they currently deem 'too hard'.

*offtopicedit - Next weekend will by my first of many visits to acme :3.  All these various discussions has me pretty curious on the player base.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:39:29 PM by NekoSempai »
Read February 07, 2011, 01:46:59 PM #22

@Neko: If that's the case, it brings up a whole bunch of issues that nobody wants to hear me talk about, including:

1. I think games are supposed to be fun.  A lot of people don't find pushing themselves as hard as possible to be fun.

2. As somebody with physiological issues (asthma, GERD) AND somebody who is in relatively good shape: It is entirely possible to lift weights for 45 minutes a day every day and still not be able to play dance games AT ALL, letalone at a high level of skill for 11s and under.  Dance games are extremely high impact, and other, low impact activities can put someone in EXCELLENT shape with dance games still being "too hard" for them.  I personally don't WANT to play these harder charts, but even if I did, I'd still object to the idea that "just practice more" or whatever the fuck is an appropriate response.

If you want to say you don't care about the disabled, that's one thing.  It's fucked up, but it's one thing.  But to project your experiences and level of fitness on other people from varying walks of life is flatly wrong, and if you don't believe me, ask me how I worked out for 3 hours a day every day last year, lost 40 lbs in the process, and still couldn't get through 11s. Tongue

Edit: Despite the forum debates, looking forward to meeting ya!

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:50:20 PM by Laura »
Read February 07, 2011, 02:06:48 PM #23

Well of course, I can't speak for his original intent. Smiley

Dance game stamina is a completely different kind of stamina than most people normally train for.  I've had friends over the years that run for colleges cross country, pour about 50 miles of running in a week, eat right, work out regularly, enjoy dancing games, and STILL have no idea how the hell people can do 12+ songs....and at the same time I know people in the dance game community that are completely winded and broken after a mile at a decent pace...but can knock out some dragonforce.

Though, as one who went from feeling physically ill after a set of DDR 8s to  AAA'ing Extreme and knocking out 15s, BARRING PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS *asthma, anhidrosis, etc*, it really does seem like the average person can do it with enough dedication.

And, I think the forum debates ADD to looking forward to meeting ya hahah.
Read February 07, 2011, 02:17:17 PM #24

@Allan: I find your comments straight up offensive and I have decided not to enter this tournament at all.  It's your attitude that absolutely pushes me away from the community and back into my garage.

You basically wish to eliminate from the community anyone that you deem isn't good enough.  I personally go to school with a full time load, going to classes all day, and doing homework all night.  I also tutor 15 hours a week as a part time job and I teach kid yoga on the weekends.  Aside from that, I dedicate time to my relationship and my friends, and at the end of it all, I only have about 5 hours a week to dedicate to dance games.  You can take that as one big excuse if you like, but that's the reality of the situation.

If my inability to pass 12's means that I am not welcome at a community event, then I have no intention of attending.

I have enjoyed the debates with NekoSempai and others, but I am really tired of the elitist attitude surrounding this tournament, and I'm simply done.  I anxiously await another tournament where the community can have fun and everyone feels welcome by the ruleset and all in attendance.
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