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BLueSS
January 27, 2007, 02:10:04 AM - ORIGINAL POST -


« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:55:28 PM by BLueSS »
 
NSX
Read August 13, 2014, 06:19:44 AM #3301

Man, I just got back from Vietnam and was planning to practice up my piu skills...I think i might be hooked on piu now since that's all I had to play overseas. Hope that somehow pump can stay, if not, it's gonna be sad to see it go Sad
 
cwkarma123
Read August 13, 2014, 09:52:32 AM #3302

Man, I just got back from Vietnam and was planning to practice up my piu skills...I think i might be hooked on piu now since that's all I had to play overseas. Hope that somehow pump can stay, if not, it's gonna be sad to see it go Sad

Here is what you really should...   Undecided

You should come beast with me and Abbye this week, and come do the 5k Sandblaster run in September.
 
vyhd
Read August 13, 2014, 10:36:59 AM #3303

Pump has been literally the only reason I go to Acme since the ITG pad disaster started. The downside of that is I don't drop by very often, but I'd definitely go play it if it were elsewhere in the area.
 
BLueSS
Read August 13, 2014, 11:50:41 AM #3304

Honest question to Bill / other members:

If the PIU machine is already the lowest performing machine for the past few months (sad news indeed) while the machine is at the most likely location for music gamers to play it (referring to Acme, not the back corner of the arcade), wouldn't relocating it to somewhere that's not Acme just be a life-support alternative to getting rid of it completely?   Wouldn't PIU still be a low performer at wherever it gets moved to?
 
Iori241
Read August 13, 2014, 12:10:03 PM #3305

@iori242,

Iori241, I'm extending my hand out to you (over the Internet).

Lets just be friends.  

There is no need for any more arguing over trivial matters. You may or may not believe that I'm doing the best I can to accommodate to everyone's needs at Acme, all I can give you is my word. I know you have strong opinions about what me and my team are doing at Acme, but I can assure you that we're not trying to steer people away.

I apologize for anything I've said to you over these forums that may have upset you, but let us forgive and forget. Let us move on and smash some arrows!

I invite you come play with us at Acme whenever you have time. We can discuss how to make the stage better there.

an argument doesn't immediately mean someone dislikes someone else. i argue with a ton of people and i think the key thing to learn about argumentation is that when you direct a point it's at their argument and not them unless you are going after a fault in character. even then, pointing out fault is not the same as the newspeak "PERSONAL ATTACK" that gets thrown around a lot.

 i am disagreeing with your methodology in going about all this but tbh at this point it's not even worth arguing bc it seems like the pads are moving in this direction w/ or w/o player input and the community is becoming more fragmented because of it. this whole fiasco is sad in that many players' issues with this whole debacle are being perceived as tertiary to the "real" problems. there have been a great deal of valid concerns expressed and it's absurd that people feel as though they are above criticism and can move forward to push an inward looking agenda while laying claim to a philanthropic desire of helping the community. also you say this is a trivial matter, but it seems like there are heartfelt responses on both sides of the debate.

good luck w/ the pads i guess, but in closing the long term solution is to get a machine.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 12:20:05 PM by Iori241 »
 
BLueSS
Read August 13, 2014, 12:33:23 PM #3306

it seems like the pads are moving in this direction w/ or w/o player input and the community is becoming more fragmented because of it.

I don't think this is the situation at all anymore.  The poll regarding for/against the pad modifications shows that the majority of the currently active community members are indeed in favor of the modifications.

Those who are against the modifications have made several posts here about the situation.  I reached out to ask APHR about the possibility of a "half-way" mod between recessed and flushed to which his response was that the halfway option would be worse for everyone and it was tried early on in the initial modifications of the Acme machine.

If that is indeed the situation, there will have to be a choice made one way or the other; for or against modding.  Before we start going down that road again, we are going to wait for the new sensors to be installed, at which point anyone with a complaint should try the machine one more time and then we will have a new poll to see whether the community is in favor of the mod or not.  If a "halfway modded" machine is not possible, at that point we'll have to decide whether the mod stays like it has been or to put it back as recessed.

The fact that Bill says revenue has been up is another good indication that the community of active Acme players are actually is in favor of the modification. Yes, the presence of a mod would means some people are currently not active at Acme; but the inverse would be true that the pro-modders would probably be less active at Acme if the machine went back to being recessed.


TL;DR: Iori, you're not honestly representing the current state of the situation. Concerns are being evaluated and investigated, and we're all trying to figure this out without any group ignoring the desires of the other side.
 
OrangeChicken
Read August 13, 2014, 02:10:04 PM #3307

Well then, Iori, I apologize for having responded so angrily to you as well. I pretty much wanted to defend APHR and Rose because they're like close friends to me. I don't think we were able to tell that you weren't arguing for the sake of starting fights, or that your tone was supposed to be calm and debate-like. I sort of just assumed, from your previous sarcastic comments that you just wanted to cause trouble.

I hope we can get along if we do ever meet in person.
 
Laura
Read August 13, 2014, 03:18:36 PM #3308

RE: a "halfway" mod not being possible - I know PLENTY of machine owners in other parts of the country who have modded their pads to be raised but not completely flush, and these pads have been flawless. Just because one person doesn't know how to do it doesn't mean it isn't possible! I would be happy to reach out to some such people and ask them to describe their methodology if that would be agreeable to everyone here?
 
cwkarma123
Read August 13, 2014, 03:44:46 PM #3309

RE: a "halfway" mod not being possible - I know PLENTY of machine owners in other parts of the country who have modded their pads to be raised but not completely flush, and these pads have been flawless. Just because one person doesn't know how to do it doesn't mean it isn't possible! I would be happy to reach out to some such people and ask them to describe their methodology if that would be agreeable to everyone here?

I'm not stating that "half-way" modding isn't possible. We can easily "half-way" mod the stage if we desire, but in the current condition the stage at ACME is in, that is impossible without it becoming unplayable.

When we first started modding the stage, half-way was the method we chose. However, the stage became awful in a number of different ways. So through some advice from top-end players (Archi, Pez, Dimir, Dirk) I was directed to completely flush the stage. After doing so, the stage performed extremely well for a long period of time.

Also, this goes back into the discussion of compatibility for the players. As stated by BLueSS, the most active portion of the community prefers the stage flushed. In knowing this, If I were to "half-way" mod the stage, players who desire to play 14's+ would be once again, placed on the back burner. While a flushed stage still allows players who choose to play 9's to do so.

As Allan (Gerrak) mentioned in a pervious post, modding a stage flush allows for a much deeper endgame.

When me and my team receive the new sensors, we will install them ASAP and mod the stage flush. This is where we need the cooperation of the entire community to leave constructive feedback on the forums with regards to how the stage is functioning for you.

Thanks

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 04:06:56 PM by APHR »
 
BLueSS
Read August 13, 2014, 04:14:00 PM #3310

However, the stage became awful in a number of different ways.
Hey APHR, could you describe the issues Acme's machine had with the half-way method?
 
Iori241
Read August 13, 2014, 04:54:23 PM #3311

I don't think this is the situation at all anymore.  The poll regarding for/against the pad modifications shows that the majority of the currently active community members are indeed in favor of the modifications.

Those who are against the modifications have made several posts here about the situation.  I reached out to ask APHR about the possibility of a "half-way" mod between recessed and flushed to which his response was that the halfway option would be worse for everyone and it was tried early on in the initial modifications of the Acme machine.

If that is indeed the situation, there will have to be a choice made one way or the other; for or against modding.  Before we start going down that road again, we are going to wait for the new sensors to be installed, at which point anyone with a complaint should try the machine one more time and then we will have a new poll to see whether the community is in favor of the mod or not.  If a "halfway modded" machine is not possible, at that point we'll have to decide whether the mod stays like it has been or to put it back as recessed.

The fact that Bill says revenue has been up is another good indication that the community of active Acme players are actually is in favor of the modification. Yes, the presence of a mod would means some people are currently not active at Acme; but the inverse would be true that the pro-modders would probably be less active at Acme if the machine went back to being recessed.


TL;DR: Iori, you're not honestly representing the current state of the situation. Concerns are being evaluated and investigated, and we're all trying to figure this out without any group ignoring the desires of the other side.
the fact that not all the community's qualms have been satisfactorily responded to means that any discussion that moves forward without said issues being discussed is dishonest. a halfway mod is more than possible as it's been done elsewhere. perhaps let someone else do the halfway mod? the argument that since one person couldn't successfully do it so all people can't/it's universally bad is a false premise since someone else could try fixing it. perhaps having someone out of state with experience regarding this should help or at least give some advice on half modded pads (which is actually a misnomer given the state of modding a pad is a yes/no proposition). i should probably clarify and say that i don't oppose ALL MODDED pads here. i am a huge proponent of people doing as they wish with their property

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 04:56:39 PM by Iori241 »
 
BLueSS
Read August 13, 2014, 05:08:44 PM #3312

the fact that not all the community's qualms have been satisfactorily responded to means that any discussion that moves forward without said issues being discussed is dishonest.
Iori, please be specific in providing a listing of qualms that local Acme players have with the ITG modding that haven't been addressed and we'll re-address them; provided they aren't issues that should wait until after the new sensors arrive, at which point then would be the proper time for bringing those up.

Please include the user's name with their qualm so that we can properly make sure we address the person's specific concern.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 05:14:35 PM by BLueSS »
 
cwkarma123
Read August 13, 2014, 05:23:01 PM #3313

Hey APHR, could you describe the issues Acme's machine had with the half-way method?


Initially, when I started to mod the stage at ACME it was done with the following:

4 pieces of 2 1/2 inch weather stripping foam that were placed on all 4 "L" brackets.

When modded this way (half-way or half-flushed), the sensors at ACME false triggered a lot more than it should. I believe the reason why this happened was from the panel rocking and hitting the other super sensitive sensors. I want to emphasize that this issue was unique to ACME do to the condition of the sensors.

When the stage is "half-way" modded, the panels do not fully touch the triangle brackets that are placed to hold the arrow panel in place, nor does it fully touch the "L" Brackets and the frame around the "L" Bracket. Therefore, the arrow panel will rock back and forth when playing. For instance, when your left foot is moving up to hit the left arrow after hitting the down arrow, your foot is generally placed lower on the left arrow panel which causes the panel to rock up and hit bottom sensor in the left arrow panel. This is where the false/ghost triggers occur. In order to prevent the panel from rocking, more foam and tape were used to further flush the stage.

I do want to re-emphasize that, if the stage reverts back to the "recessed" or "half-modded" state, we are preventing players from reaching the end-game portion of ITG. Without a fully flushed stage, we are preventing a large group of players from playing at ACME. At least 6 of the 8 players who have voted for keeping the flushed stage will frequent ACME far less, or stop going entirely. I know at least 4 of the 6 players will stop going if the stage reverts back. These are the player who play more than 3-4 times a week, and spend more than $50 a week.

My intent is to be inclusive of all players and all play levels.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 05:24:48 PM by APHR »
 
mvco
Read August 13, 2014, 05:52:08 PM #3314

I would love to think that PIU would do better if relocated, but I know that would not be the case.  You would have to see just how bad it compares to everything else in te room.  It's mega poopy!

The good thing, it will be relocated to Starfire, only a 3 minute drive from Acme.
 
vyhd
Read August 13, 2014, 06:23:29 PM #3315

My intent is to be inclusive of all players and all play levels.

This is very heavily at odds with how you've been approaching the conversation. If you want to let the people who are dumping the most cash into the machine determine how it is for the rest of the players, just say it outright. Don't tell us "the people who pay the most want the pads flush, so I'm making them flush" and then claim to be looking out for the community at large.
 
nekura
Read August 13, 2014, 06:31:37 PM #3316

I would love to think that PIU would do better if relocated, but I know that would not be the case.  You would have to see just how bad it compares to everything else in te room.  It's mega poopy!

The good thing, it will be relocated to Starfire, only a 3 minute drive from Acme.
Thanks for at least having the machine at Acme for a while, Bill. Being able to play there helped re-ignite my love for Pump after I got tired of the Pro 2 at Power Play.

Don't forget that the Waterfront arcade in Seattle has Fiesta 2. The machine isn't as good as the Acme one, but it's something at least, especially if Acme was already a drive for you.
 
OrangeChicken
Read August 13, 2014, 07:06:32 PM #3317

Why don't let this debate wait until after we can test with the new sensors?
 
cwkarma123
Read August 13, 2014, 07:12:58 PM #3318

This is very heavily at odds with how you've been approaching the conversation. If you want to let the people who are dumping the most cash into the machine determine how it is for the rest of the players, just say it outright. Don't tell us "the people who pay the most want the pads flush, so I'm making them flush" and then claim to be looking out for the community at large.

How would someone play a 16 on a recessed stage? A 17 or 18 would be laughably impossible.

We would be removing the most active portion of this community from the Arcade by removing the modding. Having the stage modded will still let players who want to play 9's play 9's while players who want to play 17's play 17's. that's what I mean by inclusive.
 
Tyrgannus.
Read August 13, 2014, 07:36:05 PM #3319

Why don't let this debate wait until after we can test with the new sensors?

Seriously though, this.

Debating it now smacks that you're not really interested in how the pad will play, you just want to be right. If the pad has major concerns AFTER the new sensors are installed, well then yes things would absolutely need to be addressed.
 
Keby
Read August 13, 2014, 07:43:03 PM #3320

How would someone play a 16 on a recessed stage? A 17 or 18 would be laughably impossible.

You can't say this for everyone. Most 16's I've passed are on recessed pads. It's a matter of getting used to it/pushing yourself. Is it harder than flush pads? Of course! But no it's not impossible.
 
cwkarma123
Read August 13, 2014, 07:50:41 PM #3321

You can't say this for everyone. Most 16's I've passed are on recessed pads. It's a matter of getting used to it/pushing yourself. Is it harder than flush pads? Of course! But no it's not impossible.

You are right about being able to do 16's on a recessed stage. As you stated, it's about getting used to it. Shouldn't that apply to everyone who doesn't like the stage modded as well?

It's about getting used to it.

Once again, I'm off the forums until we get to install the new sensors, nothing productive is being added here.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 07:54:47 PM by APHR »
 
Gerrak
Read August 13, 2014, 10:54:41 PM #3322

Quote
the fact that not all the community's qualms have been satisfactorily responded to means that any discussion that moves forward without said issues being discussed is dishonest

Just to clear this up, and I mean this in the nicest way:

Iori, I've never met you in real-life, and I've played at Acme religiously for over 4 years. I asked Laura and she hasn't met you either. That means you've basically never been to Acme, and never go to PNWBemani events. You basically aren't even a member of our community in the first place. Your antagonistic opinions certainly don't belong in a thread for an arcade you are not involved with. Please, for the rest of our sake, just don't even post regarding this matter anymore because your antagonistic opinion carries no weight with us. Thank you.
 
DJ Yoshitaka
Read August 13, 2014, 11:19:51 PM #3323

Honestly I hate the flush pads mostly because it feels like playing on a cobalt flux or other shitty home pad.  My playstyle doesnt work well with that setup.  If you ever seen me play you would know lol
 
Iori241
Read August 13, 2014, 11:32:55 PM #3324

Just to clear this up, and I mean this in the nicest way:

Iori, I've never met you in real-life, and I've played at Acme religiously for over 4 years. I asked Laura and she hasn't met you either. That means you've basically never been to Acme, and never go to PNWBemani events. You basically aren't even a member of our community in the first place. Your antagonistic opinions certainly don't belong in a thread for an arcade you are not involved with. Please, for the rest of our sake, just don't even post regarding this matter anymore because your antagonistic opinion carries no weight with us. Thank you.
so you're saying that anything valid i say is automatically invalidated because you don't want to listen. that's a really nice sentiment.

Iori, please be specific in providing a listing of qualms that local Acme players have with the ITG modding that haven't been addressed and we'll re-address them; provided they aren't issues that should wait until after the new sensors arrive, at which point then would be the proper time for bringing those up.

Please include the user's name with their qualm so that we can properly make sure we address the person's specific concern.

so you're essentially asking me to out people for their opinions? last time i mentioned names my post was deleted, so you're saying two times is the charm when it comes to these things. that actually works for me, i'll respond to this more in depth later when i feel like sifting through the thread and quoting multiple posts but here's a decent case in hand where something is dodged without being addressed at all.
How would someone play a 16 on a recessed stage? A 17 or 18 would be laughably impossible.

We would be removing the most active portion of this community from the Arcade by removing the modding. Having the stage modded will still let players who want to play 9's play 9's while players who want to play 17's play 17's. that's what I mean by inclusive.
how is this by any means inclusive when the 9 players can't feel the arrows that they are used to feeling to begin with? bluess if you want me to take posts like your previous one seriously you need to take a closer look at who you're defending. one thing i find commendable is your strive for empiricism with the survey, but this was proven in many different angles and senses to be very flawed. just because i don't live in washington, just because i don't play at acme is the logic behind my points somehow magically invalidated? what if someone who does play there makes points like mine? oh wait, they just get ignored like vhyd's, kevinddr's and pantsu's. this whole situation is, to use a choice word: retarded.

edit: bluess if you want me to go through this and other threads and cite every instance where a reasonable argument has been ignored by that kind of post i can do it.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 11:35:57 PM by Iori241 »
 
Gerrak
Read August 13, 2014, 11:39:30 PM #3325

Quote
this whole situation is, to use a choice word: retarded.


This is in violation of the new moderation policy, per:

http://www.pnwbemani.net/feedbacksite-stuff/new-moderation-policy-in-effect-as-of-842014!-please-read/


Additionally I should answer this question:
Quote
just because i don't play at acme is the logic behind my points somehow magically invalidated?


Yes. Stop posting in this thread.
 
 
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