I know you feel attacked by the community right now; it really sucks when you're spending your time and effort trying to make our communal machine better. It sucks to be subverted, and I hope that future concerns about the pads will be raised through discussion instead of by directly changing the pads without permission. It's a real lousy feeling when you put effort into helping people and they get mad at you for it.

That said, please don't shut down legitimate concerns people might have about the pads. If people have concerns about pad quality, it's only fair to listen.

This is not my fight, so this is the last observation I will make.

You claim to listen to the better players and that "I see people who play at ACME often and listen to their feedback and take them seriously. The majority now play at ACME and love how the stage is functioning." Essentially you're speaking on behalf of people who don't wish to spend the time, energy, or effort to make an account and discuss this on the forums. If that is the case, there's nothing stopping you (or me, or Ben, or anyone) from claiming everyone and their dog wants "X" and we're going to do it because I heard it straight from all of them. If we want this to be legitimate, people need to voice their concerns or approval at a place where their voice can be seen and noted for all to see. Otherwise, we're just playing a game of he said she said.

For all these people you say "love it", I am hearing rumblings (through private channels and in-person talks) about quite a few people who don't. And even if the people who don't like it only make up 20%, I still feel it is best to try and accommodate everyone. Have you considered modding one side and leaving the other stock? This would give everyone the chance to enjoy the machine equally? (Except for doubles players, but nobody cares about them, am I right?)

That said, it is important for those who would like to see less modified, or stock pads at Acme to speak up in a civilized manner about it here, where it can be discussed. Complaining about it at events to other players is one thing, but as I said above, it needs to be spoken about in public. Chris, you do seem to get defensive about things extremely quickly. I don't know why, but this makes discussion difficult and probably intimidates others from bringing up concerns. Try and understand that a discussion about ITG pads in a public location are not attacks against you on a personal level (at least they shouldn't be).

One last thing: Have you tried watching heavier players play moderately hard charts on your modded pads? I'm seriously wondering if they're hypersensitive or not. No offense to Orange Chicken, but he's probably the lightest player around, so I doubt flush modded pads that are overly sensitive would cause any problem for him at all. If most of the people who love it are <200 lbs and baring, then that is a lot less weight on the pads than someone like me, who is 240lbs and no bar.

...I do.   

I would rather have both sides modded or both sides not modded as a doubles player but as you pointed out, that obviously makes sense.

On the heavier player note, I think I have the most say out of everyone on these forums. I'm just probably the heaviest player at 250ish. For the most part, I don't deal with sticky panels or ghost mines (I actually did a couple years back) so the sensitivity seems fine in all honesty. The problem is not for heavy players, it is for tall players. See, I'm 6'3'' pushing 6'4'' if I actually decide to stand up straight (it's hard because I've grown accustomed to having to look down to talk to a lot of people all my life lol). The bar is ALREADY too short for me to use effectively and naturally. Sure I CAN use it, but I look a bit awkward and put a fair amount of weight strain on my arms as opposed to it just being a balancing tool. Modded pads, while seemingly insignificant, or THAT much less recessed putting me THAT much higher on the pad making the bar shorter in comparison.

I don't play that much. It's not my machine. I would never mess with an already modded pad. I understand the benefits and realize I am only one voice in a community, and an inactive voice at that, but bar height is a serious concern for tall players. That's my only complaint, but I'm trying to be supes passive. It's not that big of a deal.

I may be repeating and bringing up old arguments or just have nothing relevant to say at all but I will try to state what I see as true and observed. I will try not to lean or bias my message in anyway. I will do my best to keep this neutral.

So far, from what it seems, as a very tiny little bar-player, I can understand that the modded pads may not be so much a problem for me as it would be for a heavier player. I, can still however, sometimes notice oversensitivity. There are also instances where the pad may seem unfit for doubles, I sometimes do it for fun, too, and I notice that the inner side panels don't react as well.
This, as I can see, is one proposed argument.

However, the main issue APHR is trying to deal with is that someone (or few), without at least even notifying anybody, is messing around with the pads' modding. This makes it difficult for APHR to adjust it properly, seeing as there is no easy way of measuring the amount of modding he puts on the pads.

That is what I find concerning, and also that it seems you are all so angry and defensive about many things.

I know APHR is just doing his best to keep the pads maintained in order to keep up with this "evolving gameplay," and at the same time, there are those who find that the upgrades make it difficult for them to enjoy songs that aren't total 200BPM 16th runs.

What I'm hoping APHR can understand of everyone is that the pads may be modded way too specifically, so that it only fits the "elite minority." I agree on the idea that it may even be enhancing our gameplay and can almost be deemed as cheating to many, but I'll say that that's what's necessary for this new type of ITG-playing. The players whom I notice are not that good at the game should also have their opinions and suggestions of the pad considered, but even then, you and I have both noticed that they enjoy the pads the way they are, and they aren't aiming for even 13s.

What I'm hoping everyone can understand of APHR is that he, again, is just doing his best to maintain the pads, even if it's the way that he thinks is the best, and I notice many 9s and 10s players also pretty much love the pads, being good at it or not. APHR's attitude is that he wants to see that players can improve dramatically and play songs hard as shit like he can someday, and that's probably why, when he defends with the premise that beasting players cannot play on recessed pads as well, it seems as though he's shunning and insulting those who are not yet considered "monsters." Please take into consideration that APHR is shooting for the stars, while the majority of the players are still enjoying their time on earth.

APHR, you have good intentions with modding the pads, and everyone else, it's fair to say that the pads may be way too specifically modded for the extremely difficult chart players.
I am hoping there is just a way for APHR to compromise so that the pads work for anybody, of any size, age, skill level, anything, and that you would all be able to formally and civilly suggest it.

I'm hoping this is just a friendly discussion about suitability of the pads to all players, and not a raging war between the recessed and the flushed.

We players can keep debating on whether the pads should be modded or default, that's completely fair. The one thing I see APHR trying to mainly focus on is the fact that someone's tampering the pads without permission or at least even letting others know of the update.

Kevin are you making an ITG pun?

I have no clue, I just used a random cliche lol.

I have to say I'm sure most of us here are growing tired of this debate between how the pads should be modded. It is one thing to have a friendly discussion but I feel some of it has been blown out of proportion. APHR is trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy the game no matter what the persons play style is. For me, it doesn't matter if a person likes to play 9's all day or if a person wants to stream away on 15's or 16's. You play what you want to play. Who am I to say anything otherwise.

I understand the pads can never be fool proof or suit a persons preference a 100%. APHR cares about making people happy and does try to accommodate. It proves difficult when the pads goes awry and the remedy we used once before may not work again.

I really hope that people can understand why it was frustrating when the pad was being tampered with after time was spent working on it.

We are a community here, I enjoy playing with other ITG players and enjoy getting to know other people. Albeit, we have a crazy community but we should try to respect each other and try to have some fun

I agree with Suko, we need to have this space be available for people to feel like they can speak up, no matter how one plays the game.  

I don't see why people who want to play on less sensitive pads have a problem. There are plenty of DDR and ITG machines with stock pads thoughout Western Washington (e.g. Narrows Plaza and Gameworks). I think it's great that there is a more sensitive and well taken care of machine in this area because it gives us more options on what type of ITG we want to play.

Even though I'm a beginner who plays 9's and 10's, I still prefer the more sensitive pads at ACME. Hell, the only reason I began playing there was because my soft pad wouldn't cut it anymore and the crappy ddr machines by my house were lame. That being said, sometimes the pads seem a little hypersensitive (my combo keeps going when it shouldn't have).

My opinion may not carry much, but I am sure there are plenty of people who drive to ACME from a long ways away because they like how the machine plays compared to others. Therefore if you don't like the way the machine plays then I don't think it is APHR's responsibility to change it just for you. There are plenty of other options.

I don't like the pads at acme are right now but the real problem is the quality of the sensors in there. We need to put money into buying official slightly undersensitive sensors. The sensors in acme pads are garbage which is the main source of the problem. No amount of modding can really fix that issue (I spent a lot of time at the beginning of the year trying to work on those pads. there isn't a lot you can do but adjust.) But yeah, its more likely to have pads modded for a very specific type of play style simply because it is nearly impossible to mod those pads well in the first place. Thus me giving up.

I have a lot of spare official pump sensors I can sell to ACME, but I stopped giving things out for free because I'm not a push over anymore They are used but all are tested for proper sensitivity. I would sell for $10 a piece.

Me too, buddy. Me too.

Yeah same here im a doubles player.  I remember the last time i played a round of doubles (late may 2014) it was pretty bad so I just spent my time on fiesta 2

I really don't think anyone has a problem with having modded pads providing that the pad mods actually work. Passes are not an indication of the pad working well when they include dozens of misses. It is possible to have a modded pad that is still playable for 230lb+ giants like myself and Suko (;P). If you need to disconnect all but one sensor to make the pads work (which they don't for anyone who weighs more than 150lbs and wears shoes while playing), then the pads don't work. You will never get satisfactory results with one sensor in each arrow, no matter or sensitive or undersensitive it is. Stop wasting time, money, and effort trying to make the current wonky sensors work and throw in some new ones. If the IO boards are not the problem (which they aren't according to Bill who replaced them a while back) then it has to either be the sensors or the PC. Tony claims to have made sure the PC is not the problem, so it has to be the sensors. I have to agree with Pez on this one.

The sensors that have been being used are stock Konami sensors made for DDR. 
If there really is a less sensitive sensor, and avalilable at 10.00 or below, go ahead and replace them, and send me a Paypal invoice as we should be the ones paying for parts.  :-)  (This is at APHR)

Then I think it's unanimous.

It has been the sensors all along, which is why APHR has been going crazy trying to get them to work. He's had to splice them, replace them with other DDR sensors, foam pad them, all the focus is on the sensors, and I've noticed it too. APHR's been thinking about changing the sensors.

Sooo instead of wasting your time and money on tape just buy some new sensors.  

Bill I would take sara up on her offer.

These sensors were just purchased for 9 dollars a piece and out of 16 only a hand full were actually under sensitive. Also these were designed for the rectangular shape for Pump it up pads. As a result non fit properly and we had to clip the ends.

 http://www.arcadespareparts.com/arcade_parts/pump_it_up_parts/pump_floor_switch/12031.html

THESE however are the real deal. They work VERY well, and fit properly. Sadly they are twice the cost but ultimately worth it for a game like this that takes such a beating.

http://www.arcadespareparts.com/arcade_parts/machine_parts/pump_it_up_foot_sensor/12510.html

It's important to note the difference is length, sensitivity, and the bad ones have white wires, and the good ones have colored wires.

DDR sensors are smaller, and if they are cheap or from a bad batch they can become over sensitive as well.

I'd recommend buying what you can from sara, and then grabbing up a few of the really nice sensors for a rainy day.
Or if she changes her mind, then buy 8 nice ones and 24 cheap ones.

This is wonderful news, thank you Bill for doing this for us. We appreciate this very much.

I will be working on the stage as soon as possible and I'll keep everyone updated with regards to what is going on. Maybe we can finally settle this matter once and for all. Lets just have some fun and play some dance games! No more drama, just arrow smashing!

Thanks again,

Chris

I'll sell em' ! I won't change my mind x)

I actually played today on this machine.

Most of the sensors seemed great to me. 7 of 8 arrows gave me absolutely 0 problems. Only the left arrow on the right pad gave about 3 way offs over the course of about 12 songs, which also isn't too bad at all. Still, if you guys are bent on getting new sensors, I would compare the state of the other arrows to that one.  Maybe it can be a $0.00 fix because something is slightly out of place?

I'm not the authority on this so I don't completely know, just trying to save money/time/hassle

Hopefully new sensors fix any of those pad issues with ITG that are being debated about : x

Chris, don't hate me, but I'm one in the community who has always been totally in favor of the un-flushed state. My own personal reasons are simply that I have an even greater respect for our peeps who can pass hard songs on official pads [insert nod toward Suko's comment about overclocked NES]... Plus I'm at the point that I'd prefer to play doubles 50% of the time, if I don't have Singles players waiting in line ~

That being said, I truly do appreciate the time that you guys put into keeping sensors as responsive as possible! For my own ITG playstyle and goals (generally aiming for 98's on 10s to 12s mostly) modded or unmodded are both equally workable, as long as the pads are reliable. Sadly, I have regularly encountered significantly higher occurrence rates of pad-downtime ever since the initial flush change. So this does mean more maintenance work for you guys like you said.. and it does suck a bit for the people who pop in once in a while in good faith, then happen to come on one of the bad days, where it's not in good enough condition to play more than 1 set.

I HATE YOU SO MUCH!  

No, I don't hate you!  

A lot of the time, when Abbye and I go to play we have little to no issues with the stage. Like Tyrgannus mentioned earlier, I only get a handful of miss triggers over a course of a week. There will be that one day I go back and notice that the stage is just working like garbage. I usually open up all the panels at that point to find tape missing, or pieces just simply gone. I don't always have the means to fix it right then and there so it stays messed up for a few days, usually 2-3 days. Unfortunately, I usually encounter these problems during the weekend, but, I try my best to fix the stage ASAP!  

After the long heated debate about the stage, we've hopefully come to recognize that the modding isn't so much the issue but the sensors. If you guys ever go to ACME, I'd be more than happy to show you what I've done to the stage and what the sensors look like.  

I really appreciate you letting me know what you feel about the stage! 

ZACH I HATE YOU OMG!  

I just wanted to say how much I like you guys and this game. Keep arrowing!

Glad we got this one resolved reasonably

Words and an open discussion have resulted in progress forward. Yay.

Hello! I ran into a guy (Allen iirc) tonight at ACME Bowl who told me about this forum so I thought I'd stop by to introduce myself.

My name is Sean and I just recently started going to ACME Bowl. I originally began playing back when ITG1 came out at Illusionz arcade in Issaquah under the name QWV. I played ITG1-2 throughout middle school, back when people were struggling to beat Summer and Bloodrush. I remember playing with KevinDDR, the only other player my age at the time. After Illusionz closed, I took an 8 year break for high school/college but recently I've had an urge to get back into the game.

FYI I'm the skinny ginger guy who plays 10's and 11's wearing jeans. See you at the ACME!