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on: July 11, 2011, 02:08:23 PM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by tadAAA
Relevance: 68.8%
Perhaps the reason that people think a card line is unnecessary is that nowadays it seems like we either just wait near the ITG machine, or maybe sneak in a game of DDR or Street Fighter; it's a lot easier to remember the order when everyone's in the vicinity, making people feel it's not necessary to have a line.

Though it's still not completely redundant; I'd like to see the coin/card line system work like it did in the old days.

Also, having a line eliminates any ambiguity--If someone who doesn't post on this board sees that there's a line on the machine, they'll immediately know "There's a line; I better put something up if I want to play".
on: July 04, 2011, 04:12:25 PM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by Gerrak
Relevance: 61.2%
As I gather it, the problem was that people weren't actually using the coin line to hold their place, and were rather sticking to just knowing who's up next like we very often do. As Tony said, this is the "don't be a dick" system, and yes it failed when the person in question (a friend of mine actually, but we're not on great speaking terms, though I did send him a short message about it) was an ass about it.

The problem wasn't that the coin line "failed" or was ambiguous who was next, it was that it wasn't in use. Replacing it with a card line wouldn't solve anything; it's easy to differentiate between players with coins, just don't all use a quarter or remember what number you are on the queue. The white board is superior, but of course has the problem of randoms writing all over it or the pen being stolen or whatever.

I just really dont think taking the coin queue off wouldn't ultimately solve anything unless we worked out a good way to make the white board work...

I agree with Suko though ultimately,
I think each person should pee on the machine (preferably the side you want to play on). This is an effective means of marking territory for many animals and mammals, so it should work fine for us dance geeks.

Oh and you should be able to be in queue for ITG and still play DDR as long as no ones actually waiting to play DDR. You shouldn't be in "queue" for both games, but it should be fine to play a set of DDR while you're waiting if no one else wants to play on it. But I rarely if ever have really seen this an issue in practice.
on: July 04, 2011, 05:46:03 AM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by mvco
Relevance: 59.6%
Tony, I was wondering who called, and now see it's you.  If you guys get there first, feel free to tear the coin holder off the ITG if you wish.  Otherwise we can yank it when we make a run that way.  Whatever you guys all want as a system there is cool with us, of course. 
on: June 02, 2011, 11:32:22 PM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by Keby
Relevance: 9.2%

I definitely think that interrupting an established line by sticking a quarter up is a dick move, and would never advocate anything like that.  I just think that it'd be cool if whoever gets there when it's empty sets a good precedent by putting a coin up so that others follow suit.  Smiley Alternately, Tony and I own a spare whiteboard that we'd happy to donate to the ACME ITG community if people just want to write their names in order or something.  I've never seen that done, but I'd imagine it'd work fairly well.  

This happened in Colorado actually. One arcade I used to frequent was really nice to the community and set up a white board next to the DDR Extreme and we all would put our names up. Only problem is you better write small if the board isn't that big :p

it works a lot better because your NAME is clear and visible. I say go for it.
Just hope to god it doesn't get stolen
on: June 02, 2011, 11:01:25 PM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by Laura
Relevance: 9%
I'm not sure how I feel about "new player is inserted at the front of the line."  On one hand, it sucks to be the new player and show up to a huge line and have to wait, but on the other, it sucks to wait in a huge line only to be bumped back even further by a newcomer.  I suppose that in light of the fact that these both have good and bad to them, I can't really comment other than to say doing it that way is not what I'm used to.  I'd be willing to try it if everyone else was.

Honestly, my only real issue with your favorite system is something you already addressed as problematic: the whole "what if the person steps away from the machine?" thing.  I'm a huge fan of Bill making as much money as possible, so the idea that someone playing one of his games might block them from playing another one of his games just kinda doesn't sit right with me.  I think it's actually a great system if a small group of people who all know each other are there, but it could be a problem with sufficiently large groups or people who don't read the forums.

I definitely think that interrupting an established line by sticking a quarter up is a dick move, and would never advocate anything like that.  I just think that it'd be cool if whoever gets there when it's empty sets a good precedent by putting a coin up so that others follow suit.  Smiley Alternately, Tony and I own a spare whiteboard that we'd happy to donate to the ACME ITG community if people just want to write their names in order or something.  I've never seen that done, but I'd imagine it'd work fairly well. 

I'd totally be up for customizing a coin.  That actually sounds really awesome.  Cheesy
on: June 02, 2011, 11:52:02 AM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by ancsik
Relevance: 6.8%
"Don't be a dick" is not a sufficient system.  This is easily demonstrated by the fact that the turn order does consistently fall apart despite best intentions when there's a crowd.

I try my best to wait a proper amount of time between sets, etc., as does everyone else as far as I know, but when there's a giant line at Acme, the system falls apart amid the confusion and suffers immensely if one of the players decides to manipulate the line in light of that confusion.

There are also varying definitions involved; for example, those of us who tend to not watch the machine for the 3 full sets before going up again and pass the time by putting money into other games can (and have) lost many a turn (to the point that I had stopped going to Acme during peak times and only now go during peak time because it's always peak time at Acme lately) because others forget you were in line if you leave their line of sight for more than 5 minutes.

Personally, the line game has gotten to be such an very aggressive fight that I only play one or two sets of Drummania per visit instead of the 4-6 I used to, since I can't step away from the machine for longer than it takes to get some water and expect to have a place in line afterward.  This is not a function of anyone being a dick and trying to boot me from the line, this is a function of the confusion that handling the line so informally induces; people are generally glad to let me wedge back in if my turn was skipped, but it takes impractical amounts of effort to do so - if I only let the next player know what's going on, then everyone else is confused and thinks I'm trying to cut in the line, and whether or not they speak up, they do react by assuming the line has broken down and the next 3-4 sets end with 4-6 people walking up and debating amongst themselves for a couple minutes to figure out who's actually up.  And I wish I was exaggerating.

Also, to preempt anyone who makes this claim - "don't play Drummania, then" is not a valid solution to my particular problem.  I'm passing the time before I put my money into Bill's ITG machine by putting money into Bill's other machines; I'm not going to make some absurd claim that I'm somehow deserving of special treatment because I spend more money at Acme (If I had a sense of entitlement, I'd throw in that I'm the one who does all of the hacking work as justification moreso than "I spend more money at Acme"), but I am doing more to help the arcade by passing time that way than people who just stand there, and any system which inhibits - explicitly or implicitly - anyone's ability to play games and enjoy themselves at Acme is a flawed one.

The card lines we used to use at Acme worked perfectly, were 100% clear as to what was going on, and took far, far less effort than the shitstorm I've been seeing every other time I play ITG.  Also, the card lines were not some authoritarian requirement for all players at all times, just, as we got more than 5 or 6 people cycling (many of whom would play other games between ITG sets) we're get a line going - basically, the idea here is everyone should switch over the a card line as soon as there's any debate as to who is next and stop as the crowd thins enough that it's not necessary - if four players simultaneously approach the machine for their next turn, rather than debating it, two people can easily "not be dicks" by letting other players go and throwing up their cards to establish that they are going next and that the line has fallen apart and people should make a best effort to translate the existing turn order into a card line.

And Keby is right, sometimes things randomly get a little screwed up despite best intentions, and people can, and should, just deal with it.  The problem is that the line at Acme doesn't get screwed up randomly anymore, it gets screwed up consistently.

While it is true that we should not need a thread for this, we clearly do need one given how the amount of general confusion and accidental turn-skipping has been increasing lately, despite efforts to keep a line moving smoothly.  Laura and I are both tired of it and want to fix it; Laura stated in the first post that things were so bad (in an admittedly extreme case) that she couldn't tell somebody else how the line was even working, when a few people are saying it should be obvious as long as you aren't a dick - those few people are clearly wrong, because it definitely was not obvious, else there would have been no confusion.

If nobody else can at least be cooperative and instead of saying "there's no problem, just deal with it", they could, for example, explain why the current system works and my and Laura's frequent observations (more than 2 people approaching the machine and having been frequently asked by people if I know who's up or if they should just go) are somehow not the norm, then I'd be glad to back down and let the thread die.
on: June 01, 2011, 01:01:51 PM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by ancsik
Relevance: 5.3%
The coin/card line is meant to be robust in the light of the following:
- Players "obliviously socialize" near the machine; remember, not everyone here plays ITG as a super-hardcore interest, some go to the arcade to hang out with people and get in a few sets while they are at it.
- Player isn't there when they are up: whether they're on the phone, working on the machine, playing another game, "obliviously socializing", or are in the bathroom, their turn is simply deferred until they get back and the line just keeps working.  Even if it's just that a player wants a few extra minutes of rest before going, it's easy to defer a turn with a single authoritative line; not so much is A trades turns with B, but C has been going after B and must now be told what's going on.
- Player B is after Player A, Player A leaves for the day (possibly while Player B is getting some water); the card line is a physical thing, and the new order can easily be determined, since A's coin/card has been removed (even if it's still there, it can be deferred indefinitely with no impact on turn order).
- Two people both claim to be next; with no physical line, the crowd debates over who is next and the machine sits idle while a whole bunch of people try to figure out who is really next, with a physical line, there's a physical line that somebody would have to tamper with if they wanted to make such claims.
- C joining the line just jump onto the end of the line and don't have to figure out that A just went and won't have to convince B that he now goes after C rather than A.

People might be able to keep perfect track of who they should follow in their heads, but that system falls apart in the real world.  We used to use card lines at Acme when it wasn't uncommon to have 6-12 people cycling, some of them playing other games between sets or disappearing to grab food, or who knows what else.  It worked pretty well - if you take too long to get back and miss your turn by a minute, you're up next; as an added benefit to everyone, this means people can feel free to pump money into Acme's other games if they so choose, since having your game run over by a minute doesn't mean arguing with a half dozen people about why you should be next nor does it mean waiting for the line to cycle another full time.  I intentionally avoid Acme's peak times whenever I can because playing DM between ITG sets seems to reset my place in line when it should not.
on: June 01, 2011, 09:19:08 AM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by Laura
Relevance: 4.3%
Just ITG was packed.  Most of the other machines were fairly well neglected; even Street Fighter didn't seem to have much of a line.

ITG was pretty much packed WITH regulars - it's just that normally one or two go at once, but all weekend pretty much everyone was going at once.  I dunno, could have just been memorial day but I suspect it's more than that.
on: June 01, 2011, 09:16:54 AM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by tadAAA
Relevance: 4.1%
Was the whole arcade packed or just ITG?  I was sick the whole weekend and couldn't (or shouldn't) have gone.

I really don't see how new content would appeal to anyone other than the regulars; I stick by the theory that it was just Memorial Day weekend and many people were free.  If it's like this the following weekends I'll be convinced.
on: May 31, 2011, 10:11:20 PM  Top
Started by Laura, Message by Laura
Relevance: 1.6%
Also, not a first post so much as a first post under your new username.  Grin

Memorial Day was definitely special, but I went to ACME every day this weekend just trying to find a time that nobody was there so I could play a bunch of sets all at once, and it was packed every one of those times.  I think ITG is just experiencing a surge in popularity (potentially as a result of all of the new content?)
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